Runout question

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by winmagman, Jul 20, 2004.

  1. winmagman

    winmagman Well-Known Member

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    If you take a loaded round and roll it on a flat suface how much bullet runout has to be present to see it with the naked eye.
    I don't own a runout guage and was wondering how bad it has to be to be seen.
    Thanks
    Chris
     
  2. sakofan

    sakofan Well-Known Member

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    If you are going to chase the runout demon, you need to get a guage. I have a RCBS Casemaster, but the Sinclair looks to be better.

    I'm guessing around .005 runout will be detected with the eye rolling one across a flat surface. I doubt much less....sakofan.....
     
  3. Richard338

    Richard338 Well-Known Member

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    I have the new NECO gauge. I tested some old ammo that had 4-6 thou runout. It seemed like a lot so I just spun it in the Vee block. Sure enough, those with 5+ runout had a very visible wobble. I don't know how easy it would be without the vee blocks.
     
  4. winmagman

    winmagman Well-Known Member

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    Thanks guys
    I still have not decided if I'll get a guage or not. The more I read on this topic the more I wish I'd never heard of runout.
    I recently had 2 rounds (out of 12) that were so bad they wouldn't chamber, but I've got new Forster dies on the way hoping they eliminate that problem.
    I don't shoot competativly so I don't need the last 1/2 thou. of accuracy but I would like to stay under 1 moa out to 750 yds.
    This requires more thought.
    Chris
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Got a very picky friend; who remedied his runout problem by changing to Forster Benchrest dies. Now that's all he uses! Good Shootin'
     
  6. JustC

    JustC Well-Known Member

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    buy a guage!!! in this sport,.to really get it down to brass tacks,..you will be measuring things you have absolutely no chance of seeing with the naked eye. .005" runout is nothing more than a fouler shot or a sighter shot to test windage drift.
     
  7. Richard338

    Richard338 Well-Known Member

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    I bought a gauge and found that I had a lot of runout. I was going to get a new press and dies. I have and old turret style press and RCBS dies. However, I did some neckturning, and now my runout is really good. I get maybe 8-10 with .002 in a box of 50, and at least 30 with less than .001. After neckturning, the seating operation even feels smoother. I won't bother with new dies etc for now.
     
  8. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    Chris, I wonder if runout was why those cartridges didn't chamber? If you had runout of 5 thou, even 10thou, the cartridge should chamber. My guess is that you have a sizing or bullet length issue here.

    I have used the rolling of cases on a flat hard surface for years and it has worked. You will not detect the difference in a couple of thou but as long as runout is under 4 thou (no visible wobble), it will shoot small groups (not BR groups just around 1/4 MOA). Testing the ammo at 250yds will confirm if things are good or bad.

    I demand that my LR hunting ammo dump the rounds inside 1" to 1 1/2" at 250yds. Not BR accuracy but I am not shooting a BR rifle either.

    For sizing, consider the Lee Collet neck sizing die. Produces very low runout cases. If the necks are straight, odds are the seating die will not screws things up. If concerned there, the Forster BR seating die is superb. Unfortunately, not readily availabe in wildcats.

    At some point you have to be able to monitor your ammo so that you can eliminate things that are causing your groups to be bigger then necessary.

    Test firing will only show that something is not right. Being able to measure during the different handloading steps will confirm where problems areas are.

    Jerry
     
  9. winmagman

    winmagman Well-Known Member

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    Jerry
    Those were my thoughts exactly when the rounds didn't fit. When I got home I measure every place I could think of on those 2 rounds and some others that did chamber, everything matched within .002.
    Runout might be an understatement for what the 2 rounds had, when rolled across the table the difference between the high and low point of the bullet tip was nearly 3/16". The bullet itself had a line (not land marks) about 1/3 of the way around it approx. 1/4" up from the case neck. All I can figure is the bullet itself was catching in the chamber where the case neck ends and the throat starts. That's just a guess though.
    I seated 25 bullets in empty cases later that night trying to duplicate what went wrong, but it never happened. I look at it this way , upgrading dies certainly can't hurt anything. I hope.
    Chris

    [ 07-22-2004: Message edited by: winmagman ]
     
  10. kidcoltoutlaw

    kidcoltoutlaw Well-Known Member

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    has anybody use the bersin [sp] it lets you correct for bullet runout.i shot great the other day at 785 and i had .003 to .004 of runout.how much is to much for long range work thanks,keith
     
  11. COBrad

    COBrad Well-Known Member

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    I am currently engaged in a little experiment with runout. My preliminary findings suggest that unless you have a very accurate rifle, runout of even .006 will not create a noticeable difference in group size. That said, I load all my neck turned 22-250 cases in Redding Competetion dies. All ammo appears to come out with a max bullet runout of .002. Using a Redding type "S" neck die for my .243, neck runout is from .001 to .004. These cases are not neck turned, but have .001 or less variation in neck thickness. On both rifles, a Kimber and a Cooper, fired cases measure just a few ten-thousandths runout. I am using an RCBS Casemaster, but would purchase the Sinclair tool if buying again.
     
  12. Coyote Hunter

    Coyote Hunter Well-Known Member

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    Once I got my Forester dies (22-250, 270, 7mag, 06, etc.) my run-out dropped dramaticly compared to what the Redding & RCBS dies were giving me.

    Very rarely do I have anything over a .003 in any one caliber. Some times the 06 cases will start getting the "banana" curve and I might have a little problem there, but that's simple fix....dump the casing.

    A casing rolled on the counter top does not tell you the whole truth. A empty case can be rolled and then you can see where the "thin" side of the casing is. I then mark this spot so when I put the casing into the chamber each casing will rest in the same position.

    Just one more thing to try and "squeese" a little more accuracy. Some do it - some don't

    [ 07-27-2004: Message edited by: Zod ]
     
  13. COBrad

    COBrad Well-Known Member

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    Zod, which models of dies are you comparing, were the Redding dies the Competition model for example?
     
  14. Coyote Hunter

    Coyote Hunter Well-Known Member

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    COBrad,
    The dies were the "3 die deluxe set" (have to sets for sale as of now). The main problem with the dies are the "die length", they are to short for my Lyman Orange Crusher press.

    The lock ring will only catch the last thread on the die, it makes it very hard to aligned straight. On my 7mag die the "set screw" on the locking ring goes above the threads against the die body......missing the threads completly.

    So I sold two sets and have two more to go...all Forester dies from now on.
    ---------
    Zod