Redding Match Dies - Which ones?

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Ernie B, Dec 25, 2005.

  1. Ernie B

    Ernie B Member

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    Evenin' Folks,

    I've been sittin' here, switching between the Forum and the Redding website. The debate I'm having with myself is; I'm wanting to get a set of "good" dies (not that my trusty RCBS ones are "bad") for the custom 6mmAI I'm planning to have built this coming year. This rifle will be based on a Rem. 700 action w/all the goodies, a Hvy. sporter top-brand barrel, etc., for 1,000-yd groundhog hunting.

    Anyways, back to the dies. In Redding's website, I noticed they build their Type-S Match dies in both neck-size only AND full-length, as well. While one would normally not even consider full-length dies for such a gun or type of shooting, I got to thinking, "why not?". The FL match dies are bushing-type dies, they handle re-sizing the necks in exactly the same manner as the neck-sizer dies do, and the set costs about $25 less at Midway. I personnally can't see where the neck-size only die set would be any better and you could bump the shoulders & do a full-length resize anytime you needed to... What do you guys think about this? While I am quite accustomed to "standard" reloading, this will be my first crack at the long-range, serious stuff so I would appreciate any help you could offer. Thanks in advance
     
  2. wapiti13

    wapiti13 Well-Known Member

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    ErnieB, I went through the same dialog with myself that you are doing. I built a custom 284 Win with a BR chamber with extra neck relief. I ended up with the FL type S die and the comp seater die. I also bought a set of the competition shell holders. These shell holders are set up in .002 heights to allow you to set up your die so that you just barely bump the shoulder each time. Since I'm loading to hunt, I did not want to get a sticky bolt close like often occurs with neck sizing dies. I'm also loading "hot" loads, so my resizing step lets my brass be "sized" for proper chambering without fighting it. I've been very happy with this set up. Using good brass, I'm having loads with excellent runouts thanks to all the Redding quality. Good luck, my experience validates your "radical" thinking!!
    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
     
  3. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    Ernie, there is nothing wrong with conventional full-length sizing dies used properly for bottleneck cases. The only thing that might be done to one is to remove the decapping pin and ball then lap the neck out to a few thousandths of an inch smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter. Deprime fired cases in another die then clean 'em before lubing and sizing 'em.

    Believe it or not, this type of full-length sizing die can produce excellent accuracy. They make the straightest cases 'cause there's no expander ball to bend the case neck. It is important that the fired case's shoulder be set back a couple thousandths from its fired position; that's about to the same position a new case has. Such sizing techniques can load the same rimless bottleneck dozens of times; 50 to 100 depending on how much the case body is reduced. This method is used by virtually all the top highpower rifle competitors who win the short- and long-range matches and set records doing it. The accuracy attained equals what the benchresters get. And many benchresters are starting to use this same method.

    Sierra Bullets full-length sizes all their cases used to test their bullets and nobody gets smaller test groups than they do. They don't even weigh powder charges; just throw 'em straight from a powder measure. Ask 'em and they'll tell you they've been doing it since the 1950's.

    In my opinion, neck sizing is what people do when they don't properly full-length size a bottleneck case. Fortunately, most people can learn how to do it.
     
  4. Gunflash

    Gunflash Member

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    Apr 22, 2005
    Bart B -
    I'm also thinking about lapping my full length sizing die..
    Can I ask, what is the best way ?
    Are you using a Dremel with a felt bob with polishing compound
    or a Cratex point ?
     
  5. EddieHarren

    EddieHarren Well-Known Member

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    ErnieB, give me a call.
    Harren's Custom Rifles
    2309 Oak Dr.
    Ijamsville,Md, 21754
    301-831-8068
     
  6. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    I use a wood dowel with a slot in one end cut with a fine saw, then insert fine emery paper and wrap it around it such that it's a snug fit in the die's neck. Chuck the die in a lathe, then turn it at a low speed. Push the dowel in and out a few times, then clean out the residue before measuring the die's neck with a hole micrometer.
     
  7. Ernie B

    Ernie B Member

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    DocEd,
    I will get in touch with you. I live just over the mountain in Middletown! BTW - I sent you an e-mail as well.

    To the others,
    Thanks so much for all the info. As I said, while I hunted and have been shooting for 40 yrs., this is the first truly serious long-range project I've gotten into so I'm sure I will be needing lots of help. I have been doing a lot of studying up on exterior ballistics and such since I'm sure I will need to know a lot more about that kinda stuff. No more gallon anti-freeze jugs on the fence post at 50 steps!!
     
  8. Centre Punch

    Centre Punch Well-Known Member

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    Ernie,
    Have your gunsmith make you a neck bushing die using the same reamer he chambered your rifle with, then go and buy yourself a Redding competition seating die and a body die.

    Alternatively, buy your self a set of Wilson Hand dies and an arbor press for benchrest accurate handloads.

    Ian.

    "I meant to shoot the pike but the duck got in the way"
     
  9. Ernie B

    Ernie B Member

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    Ian,
    Thanks... I've had a couple other folks tell me to have the gunsmith that chambers my barrel to make me a neck die using the same reamer that was used to chamber the barrel with. That idea seems to be pretty much SOP among the "serious" shooting crowd - and when you think about it, it makes perfect sense.
     
  10. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    Ernie, making a neck sizing die with a chambering reamer is not SOP with all "serious" shooting crowds. Here's why.

    I don't know what neck diameter your loaded rounds will have but they had better be at least .001-inch smaller than the chamber neck diameter. Otherwise as powder residue builds up in that area a fresh round will become harder to chamber.

    And your neck sizing die's neck needs to be at least .001-inch smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter else it won't size a fired case neck small enough to hold a bullet tight enough for normal handling. You'll find this out if you can easily chamber a fired case in the rifle which means the neck isn't being sized down by the chamber's neck. And that means if a neck sizing die is made with the same reamer, it'll have the same clearance and won't size a fired case neck.

    Too many people have had too many problems with ultra-tight chamber necks and neck only sizing dies. I'd get a standard neck diameter/clearance and use full-length sizing dies. You'll have much fewere problems and done right, accuracy will probably be better than using a neck-only sizing die.
     
  11. Gunflash

    Gunflash Member

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    Apr 22, 2005
    Re: Lapping info

    Bart B:
    Thanks for the lapping information. Do you suggest any size
    grit of emery paper ? Or do you start with a coarse and just
    work your way up to a very fine ?
     
  12. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    Re: Lapping info

    I used 200 grit to start, then finished with 400. grit to put a good polish on the metal.
     
  13. Skinny Shooter

    Skinny Shooter Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    These shell holders are set up in .002 heights to allow you to set up your die so that you just barely bump the shoulder each time. Since I'm loading to hunt, I did not want to get a sticky bolt close like often occurs with neck sizing dies. I'm also loading "hot" loads, so my resizing step lets my brass be "sized" for proper chambering without fighting it. I've been very happy with this set up.

    [/ QUOTE ]wapiti13, I looked for those shell holders on the website. Do you mean that they get progressively taller in .002 increments?

    [ QUOTE ]
    Ernie, there is nothing wrong with conventional full-length sizing dies used properly for bottleneck cases. The only thing that might be done to one is to remove the decapping pin and ball then lap the neck out to a few thousandths of an inch smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter. Deprime fired cases in another die then clean 'em before lubing and sizing 'em.

    Believe it or not, this type of full-length sizing die can produce excellent accuracy. They make the straightest cases 'cause there's no expander ball to bend the case neck. It is important that the fired case's shoulder be set back a couple thousandths from its fired position; that's about to the same position a new case has. Such sizing techniques can load the same rimless bottleneck dozens of times; 50 to 100 depending on how much the case body is reduced. This method is used by virtually all the top highpower rifle competitors who win the short- and long-range matches and set records doing it. The accuracy attained equals what the benchresters get. And many benchresters are starting to use this same method.
    In my opinion, neck sizing is what people do when they don't properly full-length size a bottleneck case. Fortunately, most people can learn how to do it.

    [/ QUOTE ]Bart, I'm confused. How do you lap the inside of a neck die smaller than a loaded rounds neck diameter? I would think the ID of the die neck would become larger which means less tension on the case neck to hold the bullet. I neck-size only for a factory 222, 22-250 and 308 and have not had chambering problems. Once in awhile the bolt closes a bit more snug but that's it. Maybe that's the difference between a factory and match chamber. I thought the entire deal was to neck-size only and don't touch the shoulder which ensures the brass fits to your chamber.

    I was looking at switching to Lapua brass and getting Type-S neck dies for those calibers mentioned above.
    Would you recommend a FL type-S die without resizing button and the appropriate neck bushing? I believe the FL die will still allow me to neck-size only.
    Btw, if I sound confused.... I am LOL
    Ernie, didn't mean to hijack your thread but you started a good topic here. Thanks.
     
  14. Centre Punch

    Centre Punch Well-Known Member

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    BartB, [ QUOTE ]
    And your neck sizing die's neck needs to be at least .001-inch smaller than a loaded round's neck diameter else it won't size a fired case neck small enough to hold a bullet tight enough for normal handling. You'll find this out if you can easily chamber a fired case in the rifle which means the neck isn't being sized down by the chamber's neck. And that means if a neck sizing die is made with the same reamer, it'll have the same clearance and won't size a fired case neck.


    [/ QUOTE ]
    Thats why i said have your gunsmith make a NECK BUSHING die with the same reamer.
    That way Ernie will have a die the same as his rifle chamber and have complete bushing interchangeability to suit his neck size.

    Ian.

    "I meant to shoot the pike but the duck got in the way"