Need some advice

[nheninge]

" Neck turning is to center the round in the neck" from bounty hunter

Neck turning does not center the bullet in the neck, In fact it's still just as off center as before it was neck turned. The only way to truly center the bullet in the cartridge is to sort cases by zero neck variance... and then neck turn!Each bullet set in a case with increased neck variance will actually have the bullet offset with regards to the rifling and the cartridge by the same amount. Neck turning just uniforms neck tension circumferentially around the bullet for uniform release

1) Compare the following: a custom barrel (lilja, hart brux etc) chambered with a factory neck

2) A factory barrel chambered with a tight neck.

Which would shoot better under range conditions?
Probably the custom barrel due to the expert lapping etc IMO

People that take the time to turn necks probably just build better ammunition.
If you are anal enough to turn necks on a factory barrel, then you are just trying to avoid "stacking tolerances" meaning that by allowing small errors as you build your base snowballs exponentially into an inaccurate trainwreck!

Handloading feeds the OCD monster in us all, just dont forget to you will NEVER control all the variables even with a perfect load.

 

[Ackley Man]

Man I cannot believe all of the guys that are so worked up over this neck turning thing. It is really simple. If you have a standard SAMI spec chambered barrel, regardless of if it came on a factory gun or was a gun re-barreled by a gunsmith, to do anything other than cut off the high spots to help uniform neck tension is like trying to make a silk purse from a sows ear. Why the hell would anyone want to increase the distance from the chamber wall in the neck area and invite more room for error? For testing purposes we have culled brass by neck thickness in groups of 10 cases and shot 4 different cull goups the same day. The target group size was not impacted one bit so long as the neck tension and run out was closely controlled. It would be a much better use of time to do two other things, 1- determine the length from the bolt face to the start of the lands and then work with varied seating depths to obtain maximum accuracy and 2- use a concentricity gague to check bullet run out and make the necessary corrections. All this crap about "turning necks does this and that" is an excercise in frutility unless you are doing it for a tight neck chamber. If the variance in the case neck wall is so bad that you can't cull enough pieces for uniformity within a grand or so - throw the brass in the garbage can and buy some new Norma, Nosler or other low tolerance brass. I've only run into one batch of Winchester or Remington brass with really big variances in neck wall thickness in 30 years. Finally, any one who would pay to have a non match grade barrel tight necked chambered is a knucklehead. Anyone who would buy such a gun is a bigger knucklehead and any gunsmith that would recommend it should have his head examined.

 

[MikeMurf0505]

I bougfht the Hornady LNL Overall length guage and the 2506 modified case to go with it.
I had only left a slight coating of kroil, then dry patched it and oiled it after about a week. I didnt see any additional fouling come out, and agree that it should not be kept in there. I had read that one guy was using a light coating before storage, but I think it is not worth the risk of tching now that I know more.

What a great hobby we have. I am always learning more about different aspects of this hobby and enjoy it very much.
Thanks for the help guys.

gun)

 

[TOM H]

One thing I learned shooting BR was you can have the perfect chamber tight neck rifle in 6ppc that will shoot in the 0's and the only things that will effect groups is seating depth, neck tension amount of powder. I'm leaving out the shooter and with a tight neck rifle we also know what the neck dia is.

This thing about SAAMI spec when you buy a factory rifle till it's shot no one knows what that neck dia is so to me pretty hard to say this will work or it won't.

With the shortage of brass/bullets trying to buy enough to sort would be hard to do if your looking at hunting type bullets. My hunting rifles are just that and most who will build a rifle will give 1/2" groups accuracy and I'm not going to try and turn that rifle into a LR match rifle.

I'll make the best hunting ammo for the rifle I can but I'm not sorting brass/bullets doing bullet run out. If I think I need to do those things then maybe I'm having the wrong type rifle build and I'd sure be talking to who every build my rifle and see what he thinks.

 

[AJ Peacock]

First of all,

Ackley Man, you nearly made me spew coffee when I read your post (which I agree with for the most part).

As far as the original poster, buy the following book, read it 3 times and then ask your question again

Zediker Publishing

I own some very very very accurate rifles (more accurate than I can shoot them on most days). I haven't been able to quantify many of the 'specialty' processes that are discussed on here. The one process that appears to make a small difference to me on my 7mmRM is sorting brass by weight/volume. Here is what I did and how I verified that it made a small difference to my rifle.

1) shoot all the brass in a lot one time.
2) prep the brass in the entire lot (100 brass). Primer pockets in and out, trim to a common length (all square), in/out chamfer.
3) Sort the prepped brass by weight. I then verified that the volume WAS related to weight in my batch of Norma brass. I verified by weighing the amount of water that the heaviest 10 brass and the lightest 10 brass would hold.

I then worked up a very accurate load using RL 22, 162gr Amax. with the heaviest (least volume) 20 brass. The same load in the lighter (larger volume) brass shot a little less velocity and correspondingly to a slightly (1/2 moa or so) different POI.

Before everyone starts screaming that it doesn't matter. It may not matter with any other rifle / load / shooter combo in the world; but it DID make a small difference in my test.

What did I do about it? I keep the brass sorted by weight and simply verify my POI with the ammo I'm using before I go hunting. I shot this rifle 6 times this year, 3 times over a chrono to verify velocity and 3 times at 200yds to verify POI. The group at 200yds measured .362" (I don't think I had coffee that morning).

HTH,
AJ

 

[TOM H]

The orginal post was about a 300 Dakota and the brass runs around $40 for 20 cases and it has a match chamber?

Dakota Arms Cartridges Product Page

 

[nheninge]

I agree that neck turning may have minimal impact, but allowing a thousandth here and a thousandth there may leave you with a less than desirable product, especially when you have the ability (and hopefully the desire) to make a better product. This website is about "long range hunting" and at longer distances (600-100 yards+) small stacked tolerances do make a difference. Sure there is a heirarchy of what makes the most difference. This is longrangehunting.com not hunting.com When I pull the trigger I just like to know I have done everything in my power to control the variables that I can so the animal doesn't suffer.

Tight necks may shoot better, but a grain of dirt in a tight neck could make the difference in making that 800 yard elk shot or screw up a follow up! Too tight is also bad, but great on the bench.

There is such a diversity on this site, the debates are great! There are people that hunt and shoot competitively all the way to the "once a year three holes in the paper plate" and go types.

 

[nheninge]

Since everyone always gets worked up about neck turning for the factory necks, here is the opinion/methods of some pretty competent reloaders! But they also want to sell neck turners so...

Outside Case Neck Turning for Factory Rifles | The Reloading Press

The first couple of paragraphs will help YOU decide whether or not to neck turn for those factory necks.

Should just about end the debate IMO

 

[TOM H]

Since everyone always gets worked up about neck turning for the factory necks, here is the opinion/methods of some pretty competent reloaders! But they also want to sell neck turners so...

Outside Case Neck Turning for Factory Rifles | The Reloading Press

The first couple of paragraphs will help YOU decide whether or not to neck turn for those factory necks.

Should just about end the debate IMO

Here is anothe good article

24hourcampfire.com - "Handloading For Long-Range Shooting" by John Haviland

 

[Ackley Man]

At this point I think at the least we are all in agreement that a tight neck chamber is NOT for hunting unless it is a controlled varmint type enviornment where the gun will not be susceptible to dirt and crap getting into the chamber. Some of the replys here still dispute the fact that a tight necked chamber will be more inherently more accurate than a standard SAMI spec chamber. Well, on that note you are wrong and there is no debating that subject as the bench rest community would not absorb the cost of special reamers if the was not a distinct advantage. Additionally, anyone that owns both will testify that their tight neck chamber guns regularly produce smaller groups.

As it relates to the insinuated statement that a standard SAMI spec chamber could possibly be on the tight side, wrong again. With the broad differential in neck wall thicknesses from the brass and ammunition manufactutrers the gun companies must insure that their chambering can accomodate the thickest of case necks by usually leaning to the large side of the SAMI spec. I once had an extended conversation with one of my old friends Neil Oldridge a retired senior vice president of Remington relative to this same issue and his explination was exactly as stated above.

Concerning neck turning brass for a standard SAMI spec chamber in an effort to standardize neck thickness in one lot of brass, another old friend, Jim Carmichael explained it this way: Traditionally there is a large differential between the chamber diameter and the neck case diameter in a factory gun. If you have brass that measures in a range of 13 to 16 and you turn the brass down to 12 1/2 you have increased the already large gap by 3 1/2 PER SIDE which is adding insult to injury. It would be far better to take off the high spots and use a bushing neck die with 3 different sized bushings to maintain consistent neck tension.

Sorry for beating a dead horse to death but I wanted to inject some expert opinions to help settlle a few of the points that seem to be continually argued in this thread. Can someone please tell me how the hell you attach photos to a thread like this? Thanks.

 

[nheninge]

Tight necks produce smaller groups...period. BUT they are more finicky. However, it is not JUST the neck that produces a tighter group, but likely a combination of custom barrel with tighter tolerances throughout the barrel and the gun. I still say that if I cut an inch off my factory savage barrel, re-chambered it with a tight neck, accuracy would still not be what I would require, so clearly other factors are at work than just the neck. Not that I would do this but...

a standard SAMI spec chamber could possibly be on the tight side...
- Not sure I understand where you got this idea? SAMI is SAMI meaning "standardized" Factory rifles have to be standardized so Joe Smith can buy ammo from Winchester, remington etc safely.

Neck turning to take off a thou for a factory neck is fine with al least some improvement in accuracy likely d/t uniform neck tension on bullet release. Taking the brass to 0.012 is actually overworking the brass (work hardening) as it expands in a factory neck and even possibly prevents a proper gas seal around the neck. Not a good idea for a factory rifle.

Sorting by neck variance (cull cases w/ > 0.0015 variance) followed by neck turning to a uniform neck thickness is fast and easy (with the right tools) and will will most certainly outshoot ammo that has had no modifications because it is lined up with the rifling almost perfectly. A bullet with a thin side (common in win brass) means that bullet is than much off center with respect to the rifling. This runout can be negated by putting your bullet at or into the lands to some degree, but maybe not a good idea for a hunting rifle either.

click on the "insert image" button on the toolbar above where you reply to each thread. It has a small icon with a mountain on it?

 

[nheninge]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]John Haviland's article is great. The last paragraph says it all. Anyone that can hit a prarie dog at 1300 has my ear! Good reference.
[/FONT]

 

[Ackley Man]

nheninge,

Thank you for the info on how to do attachments. It is appreciated.

I love a good argument so let's carry on. "However, it is not JUST the neck that produces a tigher group, but likely a combination ....." Your statement is correct but I didn't say it was merely the tight neck not being in conjunction with anything else. Will you simply admit that a tight neck chamber will produce better accuracy? Remember the neck portion of the chamber is the last section of the chamber before the lead and throat. You also indicate that tight necks can be a "little finicky." Finicky in what sense? I have four in differenct calibers and have never had an issue related the the fact that they are tight necked chambers. Ya if you don't neck turn to the proper dimensions you can have issues (non accuracy types) but other than that I don't know of any associated problems with tight necked chambers.

"a standard SAMI spec chamber could possibly be on the tight side" NOT IN A FACTORY STANDARD GUN! To have one on the "tight side" you would have to have a minimum SAMI spec reamer used. Remington, Winchester, Savage, etc do not do this!!! I have two rifles that were reamed with minimum SAMI spec reamers. SAMI specs, if you have ever studied a SAMI chamber drawing have a min and max dimension. Your statement in paragraph two is contradictory. You indicate that it is possible to be on the tight side and yet you admit that that chamber necks must be cut to accomodate the variation in brass neck thicknesses.

I think that I may agree in part with your comments concening neck turning but I am not sure what side of the arguments your were taking. The point I was making was that previous replys to this thread stated that one should turn all of the neck to a standardized size. I disagree. If you are going to standardize a batch you have to cut to the thinest neck measurement in the batch. Obvioulsy, relative to a standard chamber neck even the thickest of factory brass would chamber. Accordingly turning the the thinest neck measurement will increase the differential between the brass and the chamber neck increasing the potential for alignment issues thus impacting accuracy. I disagree with your statement relative to overworking the brass. If multiple passes with the neck turner are made at a slow rate the will be little transfer of stress. Additionally, brass has much more ductility than steel and traditionally does not "work harden" without either severe stress being applied at one time or through repeated stimuli being exerted.

"Sorting by neck variance .............because it is lined up with the rifling almost perfectly." BACK UP THE TRUCK ON THIS! This would only be correct if the neck was tight. What do you think happens when the bolt face isn't square or the locking lugs are not true? Where will the bullet be pointing then? "The runout can be negated by putting your bullet into the lands." If your chambered round is out of alignment due to various factors I seriously don't believe you could jam the ogive portion of the bullet deep enough into the lands to correct the alignment and if you could I hope you never have to attempt to eject a loaded round because the bullet will remain stuck in the chamber and you will spill powder all over hell and back. Your turn.

 

[trueblue]

Based on what I have read on this thread has brought up a question. What would be the minimum clearance on a tight neck chamber to allow it to be used in the field as a hunting rifle ? I know some previous posts have stated not to use a tight neck chamber for a hunting rifle, but would like some opinions on where to draw the line between the benefit of a tighter chamber for accuracy, versus to tight a chamber to where it would cause trouble in the field. Would .003 clearance on the brass to neck chamber be enough ? To rephrase the question, is there a happy medium between tight neck chamber for better accuracy and SAAMI spec dimensions ?