Motivation for ML hunting restrictions

[asd9055]

The definition of average according to one of my late professors. Your feet are on Ice, your head is in the oven, (you can figure out the exact temperatures if you are curious) and on average you are at a pleasant 70 degrees. Yet, your have forstbite on your feet and burn on your head.
In all seriousness now, you'd ahve to look at a lot more details to come up to a conclusion.

The fact remains, we "humans" (indluding myself) tend to push regulations beyond the limits, where those in charge do knee jerk reactions that leave most of us unhappy.
I had written something else reall funny, but was getting derailed. I have NO problem personally giving people hunting with true pimitive methods an early start. I am a center fire high power rifle my self. I have a couple of bows for fun, but will not hunt with them.
Again, one mans HO

 

[ENCORE]

You just have no clue. But that's ok. .not everyone knows.

As far as smokeless goes, you're right, most have no clue. These rifles are capable of shooting far better than most CF rifles when shooting smokeless propellants. Shooting groups of .750" at 500 and 600yds is easy FOR THE RIFLES.

My rifle will shoot BP, substitutes and SML. It easily sends a 45cal. 350gr XLD bullet at 3,000fps. That's bullet to bore.
I found the first node at 2,960fps, which is extremely accurate.
That's 6,000fpe at 100yds and 1,321fpe at 1,000yds.

I won't be hunting at 1,000yds, but, 500yds is a chip shot.

 

[MtPockets]

As far as smokeless goes, you're right, most have no clue. These rifles are capable of shooting far better than most CF rifles when shooting smokeless propellants. Shooting groups of .750" at 500 and 600yds is easy FOR THE RIFLES.

My rifle will shoot BP, substitutes and SML. It easily sends a 45cal. 350gr XLD bullet at 3,000fps. That's bullet to bore.
I found the first node at 2,960fps, which is extremely accurate.
That's 6,000fpe at 100yds and 1,321fpe at 1,000yds.

I won't be hunting at 1,000yds, but, 500yds is a chip shot.

That IS incredible, no doubt about it!

Coming from someone who hunted exclusively with a traditional muzzleloader for many years, I cannot FATHOM an ML shooting like that!

That said, my opinion is that muzzleloader season was always a primitive weapons season and should be kept as such.

I also bowhunt, and muzzleloader season has always meant I could shoot a bit farther than during bow season but didnt have the crowds that the rifle season brought.
By limiting the range of the weapon, the number of participants was also limited just by the nature of the beast.
Like others have said, over time some rifle companies have pushed the envelope and we end up with muzzleloaders that meet or exceed CF capability. I really am impressed but that isnt what muzzleloader hunting has ever been about.

I guess my question is, what's wrong with using that rifle during the regular rifle season?

It's all a matter of opinion, so to each their own.

As for the archery argument, I can see the comparison from compounds to recurve and longbows but in the end for most people the compound bows havent changed how far they are comfortable shooting at an animal by all that much.
40 years ago, most bowhunters had a 30 yard limit. These days most bowhunters I know still set 30 to maybe 40 yards as their limit.
All that long winded garble being said, I would welcome more limits on archery technology.

 

[MtPockets]

Double post....

 

[Mike Matteson]

I believe the restrictions rational are correct: The point of hunting, with an ML, should be to replicate the joy of being able to hunt the way our ancestors hunted. Hunting with weapons which perform as well as a center-fire rifle are just to fill a freezer with meat. They are not used to hunt, you may as well be using a M2 machingun or harvesting a field of wheat with a reaper.

Got that right. An inline ML producing 3000fps, isn't really ML it's a high power rifle. Crossbow is almost like a rifle, just limited to effective range. Long bow is probable the hardest to use and shot effective. So the restriction are inline with what a ML was or how it fuction. What's being or has come about today is way beyond the old ML. I did use a cam bow. I was effective to 80yds. Run out of pins to extend the range. I have a 32" draw lenght, which helps in longer ranges. It got to be I couldn't use the center bulleye to shot at with my bow. I had to use the smaller targets an only put in a singel arrow. Screwed up many arrows. I robinhood to many arrows or screw up to many arrows at 20yds that was in my backyard target. I couldn't extend the range there or I would have if could haved been done.
Range finders has been the biggest item to allow people to shoot at extended ranges. Or that my feeling.

I believe the restrictions rational are correct: The point of hunting, with an ML, should be to replicate the joy of being able to hunt the way our ancestors hunted. Hunting with weapons which perform as well as a center-fire rifle are just to fill a freezer with meat. They are not used to hunt, you may as well be using a M2 machingun or harvesting a field of wheat with a reaper.

 

[CMP70306]

Lol so you have a less efficient fire arm you're hunting with oh my! One you could practice with it and know your effective range. Second this could be for faux pas on a long range hunting fourm but you can always hunt your way in closer into your effective range a take ethical shot.

So what's an ethical range 200? 100? 50?

This picture was taken the first night of my bison hunt, those bison were 100 yards or less but I didn't shoot as my vernier sights were too dark to comfortably take a heart shot. Now imagine it's the last night of a hunt and that shot is your last chance to get an animal or you just wasted thousands of dollar to go for a walk. You've put in tons of time and effort to get that close, how many hunters are going to risk a marginal shot with irons that easily could have been made with a scope?

The better way to restrict it would have been to limit the effective range of the rifle rather than make everyone's shots less accurate regardless of range.

I find the arguments for scopes on a "primitive weapon" to be quite hypocritical. The whole reason for a traditional ML season is to hone your skills and take a game animal based on your true skills as a hunter. Here is PA we are limited to Flint Locks and only in more recent years were we allowed to use sabots and bullets. Round Balls were the rule and were meant to keep things traditional, which meant you needed to get within 50 yards, just slightly more than bow range. And for those arguing about crossbows vs recurve vs compounds, your effective range changes very little depending on which you use. For me a 30 yard Bow shot, no matter what I'm using is my personal rule, maybe 35 if all conditions are perfect. Oh, I know there are those Bozos out there taking 80 yard shots with their hyper velocity crossbows, but a 5 yard misjudgment in distance will mean a wounded animal or miss if you are lucky. So for the guys hunting with the precision in lines with scopes seem to be missing the point of a primitive weapons season, which is the real reason ML seasons were created in the first place. It seems that many are upset by the new rules because Game Commissions are finally saying enough is enough. Hunters have now found a way to take the primitive season and turn it into a just another long range rifle season, which completely misses the original intention. I don't think game commissions ever intended the ML season to be another 300 yard rifle season. And for the guys who claim they can't shoot with iron sights, get yourself a Gehman "0" magnification peep sight and you will be able to see like your 20 years old again, that's what is mounted on my Flintlock and I can drop drop 5 saboted bullets in a 3 inch group at 100 yards.

You forget to mention that we have two separate muzzleloader seasons, an unrestricted doe season for a week in October and the flintlock season after Christmas when most hunters are done for the year. I picked up a smokeless muzzleloader when the game commission went back to the split buck and doe season. The flintlock wasn't getting it done in the early season when we had an increased emphasis to take does in muzzleloader since we couldn't during the first week of rifle. Now that the rifle season has changed back if we could hunt bucks in the early season with a flintlock I might switch back.

The main issue I have with the ruling is that they only restricted scopes, none of the other equipment that makes a long range muzzleloader a long range muzzleloader. As I stated in another thread on this topic putting the best scope in the word on a 66 twist flintlock shooting round balls doesn't make it a 400 yard rifle but taking the scope off a precision muzzleloader still lets you make 400 yard shots under proper conditions.

 

[ENCORE]

I guess my question is, what's wrong with using that rifle during the regular rifle season? .........................

Great question. You could ask the same of the traditionalists. For myself, I hunt all firearm seasons with a muzzleloader and have done so for decades, with one partial year change.
About 5yrs ago, I did hunt and harvest a nice whitetail with a 450 Bushmaster during the general season. However, I used a muzzleloader during the designated "Muzzleloader Season", to harvest a second buck. The only reason I used the Bushmaster was because the scope I was using on my muzzleloader was in to Leupold for repairs.

I've said it before and will again. A known fact is hunter numbers across the country are actually dropping considerably. Hunter numbers using muzzleloaders are dropping like a rock. Oh, by the way, how many muzzleloader manufacturers are left? In many states they are now allowing "straight wall cartridge rifles" to be used during the "muzzleloader season".
Young people, having any choice, would never use a rotary phone over their "Smartphone". Most now days have never seen a rotary phone, soon to be a museum piece.

We should be encouraging and supporting ALL firearms, not debating rather one firearm is ethical for this or that and another isn't. If one doesn't understand the WHY in that, our shooting and hunting sports are in dire jeopardy.

 

[Mtn Dawg]

For the conscientious hunter, a riflescope provides a better sight picture for a more accurate shot. It doesn't extend the range of a firearm. Older folks aren't the only ones that may have trouble shooting iron sights. But "throwing lead" at an animal is not what we should be teaching. Marksmanship is vital to game conservation. Why limit one's ability to make a more accurate shot? The scope does not extend one's range!

Please explain how a scope doesn't extend one's range? Reverse argument: That would mean a guy with a true 300-400 yard capable modern ML would be just as capable at that distance with open sights as a scope. Put another way. I limit myself to 100 yards with my conventional CVA 50 cal open sights because that is my limit foe the level of accuracy I trust to hit the kill zone in my typical field conditions. No question I would extend that to 150 or more yards with a scope. Open sights, even peep sights, limits our lethal range without question.

 

[LRNut]

Bullets being shot at long range, specifically 800, 900 and 1,000yds do not have a low BC. Yes, that's 800 to 1,000yds. Modern inline rifles do it quite well and........ with restrictions on propellants, which all must be BP or BP substitutes.

Long range matches to 1,000yds started last June, then one in September and now another next weekend.
BPCR and modern inlines shoot together at 800yds, 900yds and 3 relays at 1,000yds.
Camp Atterbury in Indiana will be covered in smoke this next weekend, June 10th and 11th.

The bullet in the photo below has a very high BC, actually .270 - G8. Its a 45cal and weighs 350grs. It is extremely accurate to 1,000yds, shot with 120grs VOLUME of BH209.

With the maximum charge of 120grs VOLUME of BH, a 40moa mount is used and then it takes 61.5moa to hit at 1,000yds.
This bullet will kill any animal in North America.

View attachment 468029

You didn't specify the MV but judging from the fact you need 61.5 MOA tells me the TOF is probably approaching or exceeding 2 seconds; my Lapau takes 18.5 at 910 @8750 and the TOF is well over 1 second. In the West, it is a pretty rare wind that doesn't change over a 2 second period (just hold up a Kestrel).

Wind is what causes you to miss at LR and something that takes 61.5 MOA @1000 yards is going to have a huge hang time. I am not arguing these rifles cannot shoot tight groups, but even a Lapua is not a sure thing at 800 in a gusting wind, which is what I see just about every day past 10 am. Hit today at 910 - 1/2 MOA right and a few inches high but wind was maybe 1-2 mph. In an hour or two when the wind picks up I will shoot at 760, which is infinitely harder than 910 in little or no wind.

 

[ENCORE]

You didn't specify the MV but judging from the fact you need 61.5 MOA tells me the TOF is probably approaching or exceeding 2 seconds; my Lapau takes 18.5 at 910 @8750 and the TOF is well over 1 second. In the West, it is a pretty rare wind that doesn't change over a 2 second period (just hold up a Kestrel).

Wind is what causes you to miss at LR and something that takes 61.5 MOA @1000 yards is going to have a huge hang time. I am not arguing these rifles cannot shoot tight groups, but even a Lapua is not a sure thing at 800 in a gusting wind, which is what I see just about every day past 10 am. Hit today at 910 - 1/2 MOA right and a few inches high but wind was maybe 1-2 mph. In an hour or two when the wind picks up I will shoot at 760, which is infinitely harder than 910 in little or no wind.

This chart is when using 120grs VOLUME of BH209. Its dead on. I actually won the inaugural Long Range match last June at Camp Atterbury. We had a fish tailing wind, coming either from the SE or SW. You would be loading, watching wind flags and make a 6moa left adjustment. By the time you got into the prone position, you may have to dial 12moa right.

Now, if I were shooting SML..........

 

[Goldengun]

That would be pretty different than what we have here in Montana. We have 6 weeks of archery to start off, a week break then 6 more weeks of general rifle, break for a couple of more weeks and the newly instituted traditional muzzleloader goes for another week. That's September to the middle of December. They'd have to be breaking stuff apart and I don't see anyone around here wanting to do that. We're lucky they even added the new muzzleloader season. Before the only muzzleloader stuff we had was weapons restriction areas and those were/are no in-lines, no scopes, no sabots.

I don't think I'd be too upset if they did something though. First 2 weeks of archery all trad, first 2 weeks of rifle any muzzleloader goes. I'd be fine with that, my wife might not like that I have new bows and muzzleloaders showing up though. I still need to get a traditional one, in case I still ever have a tag.

6 weeks of rifle is an eternity for a lot of states, plus they have far larger populations. But we all want a little more, right.

 

[6.5x300 WBY]

This chart is when using 120grs VOLUME of BH209. Its dead on. I actually won the inaugural Long Range match last June at Camp Atterbury. We had a fish tailing wind, coming either from the SE or SW. You would be loading, watching wind flags and make a 6moa left adjustment. By the time you got into the prone position, you may have to dial 12moa right.


View attachment 468175


Now, if I were shooting SML..........


View attachment 468176

Yup people just don't know our sml capabilities. Also the best sml make the best BH 209 rifles. Impressive Encore.

 

[JAYgs8163]

BH209 is a game changer fosho even in a standard inline ML as long as you upgrade the ignition system.

 

[LRNut]

This chart is when using 120grs VOLUME of BH209. Its dead on. I actually won the inaugural Long Range match last June at Camp Atterbury. We had a fish tailing wind, coming either from the SE or SW. You would be loading, watching wind flags and make a 6moa left adjustment. By the time you got into the prone position, you may have to dial 12moa right.


View attachment 468175


Now, if I were shooting SML..........


View attachment 468176

That is exactly my point - look at your TOF- 1.5 seconds. I noticed you had zero wind and didn't account for spin drift (which you would have at 800 yards). Congrats on winning that competition, but you yourself said you were dialing 6M right then 12 left, etc. AND you had wind flags - which is a huge advantage. My point is, taking that kind of shot on an elk has a high probability of wounding one. I am referring to the claim an 800 yard shot with a ML is a piece of cake.