Magazine Limitations / Berger 215 Hybrid

[Blaze Orange]

I'm looking to explore the long range capabilities of .300 Win Mag Model 70 from the late '70s/early 80's. Max length the magazine could handle would be around 3.375" likely a bit less.

While the goal is "one and done", I would like the speed and convenience of a magazine if possible.

I'm just beginning my journey into reloading and have read a lot of good things about the Berger 215 Hybrid. But with reported COALs of around 3.600" that sounds like a problem.

Is it possible to load high BC bullets for a factory magazine as short as mine and still get high velocity and tight groups?

Are there gunsmithing options I could look into?

Any help much appreciated.

 

[benchracer]

The first questions that have to be answered involve your chamber dimensions. How far out can you seat the bullet before it contacts the rifling? What is the preferred (most accurate) seating depth with that bullet in your rifle?

Once you know the answers to those questions, then you can begin to consider where those numbers fall relative to available mag length. If your most accurate load with your chosen bullet is longer than mag length, you may be able to extend your mag length by having a Wyatt's Extended Mag Box installed, which reportedly allows max OAL of around 3.850.

It all depends on whether or not you feel you can live with single loading your long range rounds or not. If you just can't live without using your rifle as a repeater, then the Wyatt's mag box is probably for you.

 

[Blaze Orange]

You're right, whether it will fit in the mag is not the only consideration.

Been using factory loads all my life. I'm just getting started down the path of reloading. Ordered my first two reloading manuals a couple days ago, looking at presses, etc. This seems like the first obvious problem hand loading longer, sleeker bullets.

I would like a magazine if it's not too much trouble. There are always a lot of variables when it comes to hunting. Things can go wrong even if you've properly prepared yourself, doing everything right, on your best day. I like the option of a fast follow-up shot if needed.

Thanks for the tip on the Wyatt's Mag Box, I'm checking into it.

 

[AZShooter]

If you haven't loaded the 215 yet make a dummy round and seat the bullet so it fits the magazine. Then see if it will feed properly. If it does you could just go with that length provided it doesn't jam the bullet tightly into the lands, which I doubt it will do.

The 215 is a hybrid and they are supposed to insensitive to seating depth. The majority of them that I have loaded are NOT seating depth sensitive.

A friend asked me to make a LR hunting load for his 300 WSM A-bolt that has a 2.8" mag box. I tried the 230 hybrid because I had some on hand. I had no idea if they would shoot. Using RL-17 and with the bullet buried into the case it fed just fine and shot wonderfully with a velocity of 2720 from his short barrel with the Boss, which I think it 22" long. This 85 yr old shooter got a nice cow elk at just under 300 yds this past December.

I have posted this picture before. We joke the bullet is sitting on the flashhole.

 

[Blaze Orange]

Can't see the picture.

I saw Bryan in a Berger video explaining how the hybrids are not sensitive to seating depth like the VLDs. But with my short magazine (only 1/16" of clearance with factory Federal 180gr partitions) I suspect I'm going to have issues.

 

[benchracer]

A lot of folks claim that being able to load close to the rifling is a requirement for best accuracy. I have not found that to be true in my rifles. Only one of my rifles has responded well to "jam" length loads. Another of my rifles shoots most accurately with Berger VLD's loaded .120" off the rifling. The rest of my rifles do their best work with bullets seated from .040 to .080 off the lands. So many people obsess needlessly over getting close to the rifling, taking internet legend as gospel truth, without actually investigating for themselves.

Having said that, being able to load long with heavy bullets can allow one to obtain increases in performance over loading to book length. It is worth some experimentation to learn what is possible in your rifle and what your rifle likes best. If necessary, mods can be made to accommodate your best loads. It all really depends on what your rifle likes and what you decide you want from your rifle.

 

[AZShooter]

Sorry Blaze Orange,

I removed it from photobucket not realizing it would remove it here as well. Here it is again.

 

[Blaze Orange]

Wow. Does the end of the neck crimp tight to the bullet, or does the brass only engage the bullet further down inside? How well does the brass grip the bullet?

I'm wondering about developing concentricity issues banging them around in the field. Might need to take better care of these than my usual "jamb them in my front pockets and hike all day".

2720 with 230s sounds pretty good. Are you running out of room for powder?

I read Bryan Litz's Accuracy and Precision for Long Range Shooting and he made the case the .300 Win Mag can keep up pretty well with a .338 Lapua when you use the Berger 230 Hybrids. He backed away from giving them a thumbs up or thumbs down for hunting though. Left a bit of a question mark in my mind about terminal performance.

Then I read Broz's thread documenting his success using the 215 Hybrids on antelope to elk from 200 to 1200 yards. I figured 215s might be a great starting point for me. I know he and/or his son have worked with the 230s as well, but I never tracked down a thread that went into the terminal ballistics of the 230s like he did with the 215s. The higher velocities of the 215s might offer some advantages.

 

[AZShooter]

My experience with the 230s is no where near what Broz has had with both the 230s and 215s. My friend shot his cow just under 300 yds with the 300 WSM . The velocity at impact was approximately 2500 fps. It was a double lung shot. Exit was 1 1/2"-2" Cow staggered and fell with in 15 seconds.


The 300 WSM is not crimped. We had no issues with the bullet seated this deeply as every bit of the neck is touching bearing surface. I used a drop tube and think there might have been a bit more room for powder even though it was compressed. I stopped with excellent accuracy and decent velocity.

My cow was also shot with the 230 gr hybrid target from a 300 RUM at 250 yds. Impact velocity was just under 2800 fps. The cow stopped between two dead trees giving me a shoulder shot. It went through both shoulders and she dropped instantly. First two pics show entrance scapula last pic exit scapula.

 

[Blaze Orange]

That's some damage.

I think I'll order some sample packs of the 215s and 230s and see how they fit then fly.

Probably won't get the velocity out of my Win like your RUM though.

 

[Tumbleweed]

My son killed a small bull elk last season at 70 yards with the 230 Hybrid Target. Muzzle velocity from my RUM is 3,250fps. He was a little excited and put the first shot back too far but I got him calmed and he placed the next right in the crease behind the shoulder. The bull was slightly quartered away. Pretty much tipped over right there. The bullet hit a rib going in and the last fragments of bullets I could find stopped a couple of inches into the offside shoulder. Heart and lungs souped as in usual Berger fashion. Performance was about what I expected it would be with this high of impact velocity. We also use the 215 in a smaller 300 H&H running 2670fps. The kids each took their deer with it. The first was my youngest who shot offhand at a heavily quartering away and moving buck at 130 yards. He was shooting up hill quite a bit and placed the shot very well under the conditions. Bullet entered low and in front of the hind leg. It barely nicked the hind leg first and began opening before it hid the side of the deer. It blew a big oblong hole and damaged the lungs with fragments. The deer bled out very, very quickly. My oldest son shot his buck shooting downhill at 170 yards. Placed two shots perfectly behind the shoulder and both were complete pass throughs souping the vitals. Something to consider with your 300WSM is that your impact velocity will be better with the 215.

 

[Blaze Orange]

230 gr hybrid at 3250 -- That sounds like some serious long range capability. It's almost a shame to shoot 70 yards, but I'd gladly take it as well.

How far have you stretched it out on targets and on game? What size groups are you getting?

 

[Tumbleweed]

It's a new full custom build. Last season was it's debut. Again, my oldest son shot his first bear at 460 yards, that's it's farthest kill. About a 1.5" entrance with a 5" exit through shoulder, DRT. I've had it out to 1370 yards collecting drop data, it was staying around .25 moa all the way from 100 yards on out. Waiting on rings right now to get my new vortex mounted