ENCORE
Well-Known Member
Jeff is an exceptional shot and FAR above the "run of the mill" shooter.
Long range muzzleloader for a noob
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Jeff is an exceptional shot and FAR above the "run of the mill" shooter.
carolusworld
Member
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2012
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Get a 45 and shoot without a sabot. I went the smokeless route with a DSS custom barrel for my TC Prohunter. With that barrel I received an adjustable sizing die. I size the 275 gr Parker match hunter bullets I shoot. I also use the die to size bullets for a bp TC Prohunter 45 my children shoot. That bp rig was a 3 inch gun shooting sabots and shoots cloverleaves with sized bullets. I had a muzzle break made for it for the children. The break work great. My daughter says she can see the bullet hit the paper. My opinion is get a 45 and have a sizing die made so u can shoot without a sabot.
ATH
Well-Known Member
I've routinely taken deer with a T/C Omega (ancient technology now, right??) at 300-400 yards with a 200SW over 110gr 777.
The same gun has shot very nice groups out to 500 yards with the 325gr FTX and 135gr 777. If I'd ever had a chance on a deer in calm wind beyond 400 in the couple years I hunted that load, if I were confident of the range, I would not have hesitated to take the shot.
So BP/sub rifles are capable.
But I went smokeless. I shake my head at the comments about being dangerous. Simply ignorance. There is no comparison between a gun designed for smokeless and one designed for BP. Heck, my smokeless barrel is far beefier in every dimension than my 300WM barrel, but made from the same steel.
If you won't shoot smokeless in a ML because of fear of double loads, I guess you don't shoot reloads in centerfire either.
The same gun has shot very nice groups out to 500 yards with the 325gr FTX and 135gr 777. If I'd ever had a chance on a deer in calm wind beyond 400 in the couple years I hunted that load, if I were confident of the range, I would not have hesitated to take the shot.
So BP/sub rifles are capable.
But I went smokeless. I shake my head at the comments about being dangerous. Simply ignorance. There is no comparison between a gun designed for smokeless and one designed for BP. Heck, my smokeless barrel is far beefier in every dimension than my 300WM barrel, but made from the same steel.
If you won't shoot smokeless in a ML because of fear of double loads, I guess you don't shoot reloads in centerfire either.
ENCORE
Well-Known Member
Not saying it can't be done, however, 300 and 400yd hunting shots with a 200SW and 110grs of T7, gives approximately 650fpe at 300yds and approximately 500fpe at 400yds. Very low bullet energy for hunting whitetail. Its my opinion and I'd certainly bet many others opinion, those shots shouldn't be taken "routinely". Certainly never by most muzzleloader hunters.
Call it "ignorance" if you'd like. However that's exactly what every smokeless shooter will say. They have bashed every single shooter who has had an incident or barrel rupture, as "ignorant" or worse. Except one. That was the shooter/builder of the barrel rupture shown posted earlier. I wonder why they didn't bash him and call him ignorant???
Now as far as the centerfire and double loads, in most loadings you can't double charge a brass case. Yes you can over charge many of them beyond the maximum charge listed. Try dumping 112grs of 4350 into a 30-06 case, and seating two bullets into that case.
Smokeless can be safe and there are builders/shooters who shoot smokeless propellant from rifles designed for it and have yet to have an incident. Its the mistake, the single mistake that can get you or someone around you. If you shoot enough, sooner or later you can make a mistake. Its the severity of that mistake that makes the difference. Just like dry balling, its not a matter of if, its when.
ATH
Well-Known Member
Every deer I've shot in the 300-400yd range has been in one side and out the other without taking a step. You can talk all the calculated numbers you want, but field results speak for themselves. Small diameter, fast centerfire bullets and large diameter, slow ML bullets kill differently.
Do you have any actual experience to report, or just internet numbers?
A double charge is negligence, pure and simple. Do you blame a centerfire round loaded with the wrong powder on the gun? I've got thousands of smokeless ML rounds down the tube with nary an incident. The only gun that's blown up in my face was a faulty M1 Garand. Should I stop shooting 30-06 now as they are too dangerous, as 70 year old rifles can have failures?
Ignorant fearmongering. A double charge will blow a standard ML too. If you had any real experience, you'd know that the majority of people reporting double loads in a smokeless ML experience a bulged barrel, not a catastrophic failure. These things are silly over-engineered.
Nothing I post, or that most lost on a LONGRANGEHUNTING site should be done by "most" hunters, who are probably incompetent at 100 yards.
Sorry, but I get a bit impatient with people who try to speak authoritatively about things they haven't even put the effort in to gain experience.
ENCORE
Well-Known Member
Nope, no experience with smokeless propellant, with absolutely ZERO plans of it, short of centerfire. And those who do shoot smokeless from muzzleloaders, should remain on Doug's or Hankins. I guess one or the other, because those guys couldn't get along and split. They were handed a "Golden Horseshoe", with the opportunity to shoot at Friendship, but couldn't agree and argued over the rules, so that fizzled out.
So, "Nothing I post, or that most lost on a LONGRANGHUNTING site should be done by "most" hunters........" Well my question would be, why are you posting that information where "most" hunters are reading it? Where a misinformed hunter may believe smokeless propellant is safe, 'Because I read it on the internet', then end up thinking they can shooting it in his/her Knight, CVA or T/C?
That is why those who shoot smokeless propellant should remain on Doug's or Hankins. Or, the web site should designate a separate forum to post for smokeless shooters.
I guess I have very little experience shooting a muzzleloader (to you)....... even though I shoot 2,000 rounds or more through them each year, and have been shooting them since 1973. I guess a 400yd 5-shot group of 1.5" doesn't meet your standards and a 1.783" 3-shot 500yd group definitely wouldn't meet your standards, even with a witnessed and signed target? What would probably eat at the sabotless crowd is, both those targets were shot with T7 and a saboted bullet, but with a full rest like the smokeless guys use all the time.
I'd like to think that over 300 whitetail in the U.S.A. and Canada with a muzzleloader qualifies for something......
A much better route for "most" hunters is a top quality rifle, even a custom built to shoot BH209. They are just as accurate, will shoot just as far accurately and are more safe for "most" hunters.
When shooters tell you they've never had an issue, that's when something is most likely to happen. Its like dry-balling. Its not if, its when.... if you shoot enough.
Any rifle can blow up for a variety of reasons!
Short start a smokeless load and you almost always get a poof since you don't have the pressure to keep the powder burning.
Do the same with BP and you generally have a pipe bomb!
Negligence with muzzleloading rifles is a recipe for disaster whether BP or Smokeless...IMO
Hyping one or the other based on fear seems a bit silly.
edge.
Short start a smokeless load and you almost always get a poof since you don't have the pressure to keep the powder burning.
Do the same with BP and you generally have a pipe bomb!
Negligence with muzzleloading rifles is a recipe for disaster whether BP or Smokeless...IMO
Hyping one or the other based on fear seems a bit silly.
edge.
ENCORE
Well-Known Member
edge, not much silly about it. Seems Doug's has a special forum for "smokers". Yet on sites that don't have a special forum for EXPERIENCED smokeless shooters, the discussion about shooting smokeless propellant should be avoided. Sharing a link is a better idea, where the inexperienced can read the information and/or ask questions.
Smokeless shooters/builders will obviously say its a safe practice. However IMO its not for the masses on BP sites.
Of course its operator error. Machines programed properly don't error.
Even on Doug's, there's a specific forum discussing accidents and/or safety: Savage/Smokeless Safety Issues | Doug's Message Boards
Smokeless shooters/builders will obviously say its a safe practice. However IMO its not for the masses on BP sites.
Of course its operator error. Machines programed properly don't error.
Even on Doug's, there's a specific forum discussing accidents and/or safety: Savage/Smokeless Safety Issues | Doug's Message Boards
"Hyping one or the other based on fear seems a bit silly."
I'll stand by that!
Rifles designed for smokeless loads and using smokeless are just as safe as those designed for BP loads and using BP.
I don't put gasoline into diesel fuel tank or into a kerosene heater, and I would not put smokeless into a BP rifle.
With that said, I would recommend that anyone that might want to use smokeless in the future to start off with a rifle capable of using it.
Now after having just written that, I personally would NOT buy any rifle that does not use a chrome moly or barrel quality stainless even for BP!
edge.
I'll stand by that!
Rifles designed for smokeless loads and using smokeless are just as safe as those designed for BP loads and using BP.
I don't put gasoline into diesel fuel tank or into a kerosene heater, and I would not put smokeless into a BP rifle.
With that said, I would recommend that anyone that might want to use smokeless in the future to start off with a rifle capable of using it.
Now after having just written that, I personally would NOT buy any rifle that does not use a chrome moly or barrel quality stainless even for BP!
edge.
