ladder testing question

[rockwind]

so i may be ladder testing my new(ish) 338 ai. i am realistic enough to be worried that my own skills will degrade after a certain amount of shots fired and mess up the test.

does anyone use a lead sled to keep a perfect point of aim?

what is the best way to counteract human error/fatigue while doing the test? especially if you are not a world champion long distance shooter.

 

[Bigeclipse]

so i may be ladder testing my new(ish) 338 ai. i am realistic enough to be worried that my own skills will degrade after a certain amount of shots fired and mess up the test.

does anyone use a lead sled to keep a perfect point of aim?

what is the best way to counteract human error/fatigue while doing the test? especially if you are not a world champion long distance shooter.

I will make one comment and you can take it as you wish but I ditched my lead sled last year due to scope failure. Now full disclosure: the scope is a lower end burris fullfield II so that could be the issue. I shot it on a lightweight browning xbolt 300WSM. Everything was fine for 7 shots and then I was all over the place. 1inch group became 4 inch group. I put another scope on the rifle and back to 1inch group. I sent the scope in to burris. They deemed it unfixable and sent me a brand new scope. I have no idea what actually broke on it.

Now I will say this, I used a lot of weight on the leadsled basically eliminating say 85% of the recoil. Members on this site told me that could have been the issue. Too much weight/recoil reduction sending all that shock into a lightweight rifle and then into the scope.

So my advice is...if you truly cannot handle all those shots, which yes I definitely understand...then DO NOT weigh down the sled...maybe 5lbs max. Also, I would wait for your off season which is now for us but not sure for your hunting laws. That way if you do hurt the scope you can send it in for repairs well before hunting season.

 

[FearNoWind]

Many years ago I was required to train with a 12 gauge shotgun. Slugs, 00 buck, etc. I had never fired one before.
Firing it all day long the first day produced a bruised shoulder (with a bruise that extended a third of the way across my chesk) that proved to be VERY painful. On day two, another full day of training, I knew I couldn't handle the gun well without some form of protection but the training rules didn't allow for butt pads etc. So I folded a bath towel into layers, draped it over my shoulder under my jacket and reported to the range. No hurt, no flinch, no problem.

 

[djtjr]

Building up a load with a lead sled while more comfortable will give you different results in the field. I would build up a load in as close to real shooting positions as possible. Again with a lead sled you have a very hard hold but if that's not how you're shooting the rifle otherwise it can skew your results. You'll have a great lead sled load but it may not be the best load for a softer hold in field positions.

 

[FearNoWind]

... does anyone use a lead sled to keep a perfect point of aim?

The Led Sled will tell you how well the load shoots but it won't tell you how well the shooter shoots. Any well developed load will fail if the shooter's skills are dull.
If you want to work up a load to see how it performs in the rifle then the Led Sled is one tool you can use to do that. If you want to make good use of that load it's all in the handling of the rifle when it comes out of the Led Sled. Hold on the rifle, rest (if any) trigger, cant, shoulder position/pressure, sighting, etc.

 

[Bigeclipse]

The Led Sled will tell you how well the load shoots but it won't tell you how well the shooter shoots. Any well developed load will fail if the shooter's skills are dull.
If you want to work up a load to see how it performs in the rifle then the Led Sled is one tool you can use to do that. If you want to make good use of that load it's all in the handling of the rifle when it comes out of the Led Sled. Hold on the rifle, rest (if any) trigger, cant, shoulder position/pressure, sighting, etc.

I would just like to add that id say this is true BUT I would think the ledsled may offer some vibration frequencies that are different than what you may shoot off in the field which could cause changes in barrel harmonics which could effect groups as well so I would test that final load on whatever you shoot from in the field such as a bipod. this is why some people will test with the front rest in the exact same position for every shoot because the rest being in different places on the stock can have an effect on groups. Not sure how much as I do not shoot far enough to see if this actually occurs, just spreading info I have received from others and info I have read.

 

[rockwind]

my goal was to just make sure the load and rifle were as accurate as possible, then work on tweaking my own shooting. the whole point is to improve my shooting skills, and if the rifle won't shoot right, how do i know whether a bad shot is me or the rifle. obviously, sometimes you just know you messed up but other times it is not so obvious.

it would seem if i do a ladder test and my shooting is not 100%, then the test itself won't be very helpful. i mean, sure i can just use my bipod and a sandbag type set up and i assume i am an average or slightly above average shooter, but i just was thinking why not make it as perfect as possible. it's a lot of work to do the ladder test.

that is why i was asking, maybe the lead sled doesn't make it as perfect as i would have thought.

thanks for all the info.

what do the majority of good shooters on this forum use for a rest when they do a ladder test? that is the question?

 

[barefooter56]

rockwind,
In regards to the "led sled"... now you know why cannons have a recoil mechanism. In fact , there are some load testing sleds out on the web that do have them! Newton knew what he was talking about. Having the rifle fixed means that all the recoil forces are applied to the rifle and that's never good. We would suggest a good front rest like a Sinclair ETC with the proper width front bag and a good rear bag. The towel trick is a good idea also for big boomers like you have. If you need any help please contact us in this string.
Take care!
Phil Hoham
Berger Bullet Tech.

 

[Corey Schwanz]

I've actually never done a ladder test yet (but will be with a new rifle soon). I'm personally not a fan of the lead sleds. I can understand their selling point to reduce felt recoil and it may be something great for newer shooters like kids, etc. The problem I have with them is the shock that it can send into the rifle itself. That recoil has to go somewhere and if the gun can't move at all the rifle takes the beating.

I would get yourself setup with a good front rest (Sinclair, Caldwell, Bald Eagle, etc) and a rear bag to shoot from. Will hold the rifle solid for the shot. Take plenty of breaks if you think you need it or if recoil is starting to get you jumpy and you are worried about your own shooting skills.

Also, when I was younger I would use a folded up towel or pair of heavy socks on my shoulder as a recoil pad. Even something like a trap shooting vest with a little pad can go a long way to make a range session more comfortable.

 

[Slick8]

You guys bring up an interesting point about that recoil going into the rifle and IMO that would have the greatest impact on the scope long term.

I have a led sled but rarely use it anymore except with my 45-70. My 280 and smaller, I prefer to shoot off of a Harris bi-pod and rear v bag. I've shot this way out to 300 and done .5 moa with my 280 so I'd say it's a good system.

When I do use the sled, I wrap a heavy sock around the recoil pad and run it with zero weight. That' been enough for up to what I've shot in it, a 300 RUM.

This does give me pause, as I'm having a 7STW built now with a Huskamaw and don't want to impart and damage to that scope.

Thanks for the info.

 

[rockwind]

yes, thanks from me as well. very good info.

 

[bruce_ventura]

For magnum rifles that have a sharp, bone jarring recoil, I usually stuff a pair of leather gloves behind the buttstock. That works well enough. I use a lead sled too, but only in extreme situations .

 

[dixiemagnum80]

If you have not already bought the leadsled, you may think about using that money towards a good muzzle brake. For the cost of the installed brake, you would be able to shoot your rifle with confidence, save reloading components with less flinching, and be able to shoot more throughout the day. Ryan Pierce installed my Muscle Brake and had my rifle back to me in 7 days from the day I shipped it out. Just food for thought…….
Chuck

 

[Catfish26]

This is a very interesting read. I have developed several loads in a led sled and it worked ok for me. In the beginning I was not confident enough to trust the results without it. Now I shoot off a bipod and a mono pod and it does appear from my results, that my groups are better without the led sled. I have developed 4 different loads for an AR this way. However at this time we are trying to find a load for my fathers savage 12lrp via led sled and I have not had any luck. We just discussed this yesterday that it may be time to move to bags and or bipod and try to work this load up. For both guns i had to modify the front rest so it didnt hold the stock or bind the AR free float tube too tight.