Is it possible NOT to get accuracy from A-max 162?

[freshdk]

Greetings all,

My first post here on LRH. Google search has led me to this board on several occasions, but now I need to ask a question by myself

See I have this Howa 1500 SA rifle I have been working on for some time.. I have made my own AICS style alu chassis with Viperskins and put on a 23" Lothar Walther 1:9 match barrel cut to 7mm08. Also I have got a Timney Trigger and a PM2 scope, so I have really done as much as I could to have a precise rifle for +1000m.

I inteded to use this rifle with 162 amax because they are cheap and accessible in Denmark and they seem superior BC to weight wise. Also I have read many good things about 162 Amax in 7mm08.

Now I have about 1000 rounds thru the barrel and I have still not found accuracy. I have tried many things with these bullets, but my patience is starting to run out, without me knowing if it is my rifle or I still have not found the right load. Is it possible that my barrel just don't like the Amax bullets? I have not tried other bulltes yet because I started with buying a large pile of these bullets, so I would very much like them to perform if possilbe.

Without going into details on the 1000 "test rounds", the number is that high because I started with forming 308 to 7mm08 cases...

First I shot formed 308 Norma cases.. Then i shot formed + fireformed 308 cases to see if the fireforming helped. Then I shiften to do the same with Lapua cases since I got a large batch of them cheap. Then I experimented with nech turning and annealing the Lapua 308 cases to get more uniform neck tensions. Then when that still not did the trick, I got the big wallet instead and bought factory 7mm08 cases. **** they were expensive!

From a realoding point-of-view in this big mess of Brass, I have tried differet sizers (FL/neck) and seaters from RCBS and Forster. Of powders I have used VV N550 and Reload Swiss RS60. Any charge and COL combination within a large spectrum from min to max.

Also I have tried different beddings from action to alu chassis and currently it is glued together with high streght epoxy.

No matter what I have tried, I have never experienced consistent accuracy below 1 moa. Almost no matter what I do the groups are from 30-40mm.

So my question is: Can it be that what supposed to be a accurate bullet can't perform in what is supposed to be a accurate rifle?

/Fresh from DK

 

[rcairflr]

There are so many factors affecting accuracy:
1. Have you tried a quality match grade factory ammo? If so, what was the result?
2. Are you and your rifle capable of shooting MOA?
3. What is the quality/condition of your scope and setup?

 

[Laelkhunter]

Have you tried ANY ammunition that shot under 1 inch? Do you think the 1 in 9" is the best twist for that heavy bullet? I can get 1/2" groups with Hornady Lite Reduced recoil ammo out of my grandson's Savage Axis Youth rifle in 7mm-08, but that is 120 grain bullets (Hornady SST). What about a cleaning regimen? How many times have you cleaned it in the 1000 rounds you fired? Did you break in the barrel?
Way too many variables. But bottom line, I guess it could be possible that your rifle won't shoot those bullets well.

 

[freshdk]

There are so many factors affecting accuracy:
1. Have you tried a quality match grade factory ammo? If so, what was the result?
2. Are you and your rifle capable of shooting MOA?
3. What is the quality/condition of your scope and setup?

1. No. It is not possible to get any slightly usefull 7mm08 factory ammo in Denmark.

2. Yes, I am (sometimes) capable of shooting sub moa. Several times I have shot sub ½ moa groups with some of my friends rifle's while getting frustrated with my own. Also many of my friends have tried my rifle with the same result as me.

As for my rifle I have no idea what it is capable of, that's the problem. Before I started to rebuild the rifle and it just was a standard 308w Howa 1500 it shot sub moa with factory Norma ammo. Then after I have changed the barrel to LW 1:9 in 7mm08 and swithced from wood stock to alu chassis, I have no idea what it can do. My hope was that all modifications and handloaded ammo would improve accuracy but so far it has only gone the other way.

3. Brand new S&B PM2 5-25x56 in brand new Spuhr mount. I have not tried it on any other rifle, but I have so far no reason to think it is an issue in the scope setup.

 

[freshdk]

Have you tried ANY ammunition that shot under 1 inch? Do you think the 1 in 9" is the best twist for that heavy bullet? I can get 1/2" groups with Hornady Lite Reduced recoil ammo out of my grandson's Savage Axis Youth rifle in 7mm-08, but that is 120 grain bullets (Hornady SST). What about a cleaning regimen? How many times have you cleaned it in the 1000 rounds you fired? Did you break in the barrel?
Way too many variables. But bottom line, I guess it could be possible that your rifle won't shoot those bullets well.

No, I have not tried any ammo that shot groups under 1 inch. I have only tried many differet loads that I have made myself as described in my first post. Many different cases, two different powders, two different sets of sizers/seater and more or less all combinations of COL and charge weight.

It should not be a problem for 1:9 to handle 162gr according to Bergers online twist calculator. It should first be at about 175 gr I will get any problems on that account.

I guess my real question is if I can conclude that there is something wrong with my rifle, since I cannot get the amax bullet to work no matter what I do?

 

[Laelkhunter]

I would not give up yet. Can you get any other bullets to try? Maybe something lighter. Like I said in my first reply, my grandson's rifle gets excellent accuracy with the 120 grain bullet. I know all rifles are different, but it seems your setup is a good start. Try to obtain some other bullets.
It seems like your VV N550 powder falls between R17 and R19 on the burn rate chart, so that should be good. Don't know what else to suggest in your loads, other than trying a different bullet weight, or different bullet if you want to stay with the heavier one. Good luck !!

 

[cuznguido]

You may have embarked on a serious project with that rifle. Generally speaking, whether it be with a gun, a race car, or anything in between, an experiment is better controlled when changing one variable at a time. That way when you get a result you can more easily isolate any change to one area, and additional changes made to that one variable are easily identified as to what did what. When you change too many things at one time it makes it very difficult, f not impossible to connect the action with the result. Good luck my friend, you may need it.

 

[ShootnMathews]

Have you used a ramrod or something to verify that the barrel is I fact a 1:9 twist? Or are you simply going on faith that they sent you a 1:9?

 

[westcliffe01]

To save your sanity, in case there really might be a barrel / chamber / throat problem, I suggest the following:

The Hornady bullet you reference is a "boat tail" bullet. If the throat diameter (area directly in front of the chamber) were to have been cut slightly too large in diameter, it could be impossible to shoot any boat tail bullet accurately from that barrel.

The easiest way to confirm the throat, is to find the heaviest flat base bullet you can find, and load up some of those. The Hornady 175gr Interlock is one of those. The BC is of course lower, but buy a box of 100 of those bullets or a 20rd box of factory ammo. If those bullets shoot well from your rifle, you can be fairly sure that it is the throat of the barrel.

The next thing then may be to make a cast of the chamber and throat, or you may then want to discuss your situation with the barrel maker. With 1000 rounds down the pipe, I can't see any way they will give you a new barrel, but perhaps a discount on a replacement and this time you may want to provide the barrel maker with sample cartridges the way you want to load them, since they will pay more attention to the throat diameter and depth if they know what specifically you are intending to shoot beforehand.

 

[EricL]

I really hope you don't take this the wrong way I am just wondering. It kinda looks like all the trouble started after the makeover... which included a stock that you made yourself. I ges I would put the old factory stock back on and try it out once.... just to see. Like said I don't want to imply that you don't know what your doing its just that it surely couldn't hurt too much to give it a try and see what happens...

 

[freshdk]

You may have embarked on a serious project with that rifle. Generally speaking, whether it be with a gun, a race car, or anything in between, an experiment is better controlled when changing one variable at a time. That way when you get a result you can more easily isolate any change to one area, and additional changes made to that one variable are easily identified as to what did what. When you change too many things at one time it makes it very difficult, f not impossible to connect the action with the result. Good luck my friend, you may need it.

Serious project indeed. Maybe a bit more time consuming that first estimated!

I think the only time I have made 2 changes at the same time was when I switched barrel and went from factory to reloaded ammo, but that is kinda the only option here. Otherwise I have always only made 1 change, tested, 1 change, tested and so on. That is why I have made to 1000 rounds thru the barrel because I make like 50 test rounds for each change I have made..

 

[freshdk]

To save your sanity, in case there really might be a barrel / chamber / throat problem, I suggest the following:

The Hornady bullet you reference is a "boat tail" bullet. If the throat diameter (area directly in front of the chamber) were to have been cut slightly too large in diameter, it could be impossible to shoot any boat tail bullet accurately from that barrel.

The easiest way to confirm the throat, is to find the heaviest flat base bullet you can find, and load up some of those. The Hornady 175gr Interlock is one of those. The BC is of course lower, but buy a box of 100 of those bullets or a 20rd box of factory ammo. If those bullets shoot well from your rifle, you can be fairly sure that it is the throat of the barrel.

The next thing then may be to make a cast of the chamber and throat, or you may then want to discuss your situation with the barrel maker. With 1000 rounds down the pipe, I can't see any way they will give you a new barrel, but perhaps a discount on a replacement and this time you may want to provide the barrel maker with sample cartridges the way you want to load them, since they will pay more attention to the throat diameter and depth if they know what specifically you are intending to shoot beforehand.

Thank you for the tip with a heavy flat base bullet to test if throat diameter is too large. I'm thinking would it be possible to measure this diameter by measuring the throat diameter on a fired case?

I have not talked to my gun smith about the issue yet. We only have a few of those here in Denmark and the guy who made my barrel is supposed to be the best of them. He is also a old angry man who don't believe the customer is always right and he is not know to handle criticism well So I would like to be absolutely certain something is wrong before approaching him.

 

[freshdk]

I really hope you don't take this the wrong way I am just wondering. It kinda looks like all the trouble started after the makeover... which included a stock that you made yourself. I ges I would put the old factory stock back on and try it out once.... just to see. Like said I don't want to imply that you don't know what your doing its just that it surely couldn't hurt too much to give it a try and see what happens...

Actually I tested a prototype of the chassis before changing barrel and that went really well. Also, I have a master degree in mechanical engineering so I really do not hope something is off on the chassis

But you're right, it could be the chassis is a bad mix for the bit strange Howa action. I would like to try the old wood stock, but it simply does not fit with the new thick barrel. I would have to put the old stock in the mill and make some more space for the 22mm barrel, but it is something I could try to be absolutely certain it is not the chassis that makes the difference.

 

[freshdk]

Have you used a ramrod or something to verify that the barrel is I fact a 1:9 twist? Or are you simply going on faith that they sent you a 1:9?

I have not verified it is a 1:9 twist! Only thing is I can see it has a faster twist than 1:11 by looking into the barrel with a flashlight.

Will google easiest way to measure twist rate right away.