Interesting results from cleaning my barrel at the range.

[engineer40]

Like most of you here, I was taught growing up that you never put a gun away without cleaning it. So I've always been religious about cleaning my guns after shooting.

5-6 months ago I started learning about the benefits of your barrel reaching a copper equilibrium and not cleaning until your accuracy starts to suffer. And that any primers or powders made within the last few decades are not corrosive and will not harm your barrel if left uncleaned.

I've been trying that newer methodology with my 30-06. The top left 5 shots are not horrible (still under an inch), but I have done better with this gun and this ammo. I have around 200ish rounds through the rifle since it was last cleaned.

So as a test I cleaned the barrel at the range and shot 5 more rounds at a different point on the same target. Those would be the bottom right holes. I did run 3 dry rags through the barrel to make sure all of the cleaning solvent was out.

It is very interesting to me how far off that first shot was! I mean this is only 100 yards. At 200-300 yards that would have been 4-7 inches off point of aim just because the barrel was clean!

I've known about clean barrels having a different POI for a long time. I guess I've just never proved it to myself until today and it really surprised me how much a difference it really does make.

I'll never go hunting with a clean barrel ever again!

I labeled shots 1 and 2. Then you can see shots 3, 4, and 5 were stacked right on top of each other.

 

[snookntarpon]

Very nicely done. I think we all know not to go to the field with a clean barrel, but I had no idea how dramatic the effect could be.
Thanks
SNT

 

[Schnyd112]

I had similar results with my 25-06. I worked up a load, found one it liked (110 accubonds at 3100ish fps) and had it shooting 1.5" groups at 300 yards. I cleaned it, all of it, and went back to shooting the new loads. Mine took longer than 1 shot to settle down, closer to 10. After 2 five shot groups that were 3" plus at 300 yards it settled back to 1.5 inches. I have not cleaned it since.

 

[snookntarpon]

I had one gun, a loaner because it did not shoot good groups, and after a few seasons of friends borrowing it (7 mag) the last guy said he knew why i didn't want to sell it. It was grouping at .3 moa with barnes ttsx 160 gr. I confirmed this at the range and gave it a good cleaning with lots of Montana extreme to get the copper out. Went through a couple of boxes before it shot well again. Never used the Montana Extreme on that gun again.

Since then the off the shelf gun has received a new Mc Millan stock and cerakote as the metal was beat up. I can't wait to try some new loads w it.
snt

 

[engineer40]

I had similar results with my 25-06. I worked up a load, found one it liked (110 accubonds at 3100ish fps) and had it shooting 1.5" groups at 300 yards. I cleaned it, all of it, and went back to shooting the new loads. Mine took longer than 1 shot to settle down, closer to 10. After 2 five shot groups that were 3" plus at 300 yards it settled back to 1.5 inches. I have not cleaned it since.

I only used Hoppe's. I purposefully kept the copper cleaning products away for my experiment today.

I didn't expect my groups to be opening up after only a couple hundred rounds. Before I started not cleaning my barrel as often, I used the Tubb's Final Finish system and that is supposed to stretch out the amount you can shoot before copper fouling affects accuracy. And I've heard of other people going 300-400 before cleaning.

 

[Shane Lindsey]

I have found similar results with most factory rifle barrels. 2 aftermarket barrels have been very different however.
I have a 30-06 that I did some cold bore mapping. 3 cold/clean bores tests. Shot 1 clean and 3 for a group. Then pulled the rifle off the line and cleaned with KG1. Repeated the test 2 more times. All 4 shots were within the same group each time.

KG1 cleans powder very well and is supposed to get minor copper.

I still want to do this and clean powder and copper and see what it does.

Conclusion on this rifle. Clean powder and it will still hold its group. Copper yet to be determined.

Shane

 

[FEENIX]

I have around 200ish rounds through the rifle since it was last cleaned.

I never go through that many rounds shot without cleaning, I do it every 20-30 shots (and most of the time, it does not get that dirty, esp. my Lilja barrel) mostly with Gunslick foaming barrel cleaner during load development and has been working for me.

Pretty sure others have their own effective cleaning regimen.

I'll never go hunting with a clean barrel ever again!

I never do!

My .270 AI's last cold bore shot at 200 yards with 175 Matrix before calling it good before the 2014 hunting season.

Result afield: young muley buck's ticker at 311 yards.

 

[CogburnR]

I also do not clean every session for this reason.

When I do clean I finish with Kroil and then dry patch until the patches are completely dry. So far this has been better than anything else I have tried as far as first clean bore shots being close to the dirty bore groupings.

Some bore treatments will result in many shots required before the rifle will group in the same place again.

Anyone have good methods for cleaning resulting in first shots being close to the desired aimpoint?

 

[youngtrout]

The OP had a loaded post, first was running a rifle to 200 or so shots before cleaning,,,,,then posted a group after cleaning with the 2 fliers before it settled down.

It's a pretty universal fact that the first few shots out of a clean bore will be off POI from a zero,,,, I do not have any secrets to minimize this other than always having a few-five foulers down the tube before any hunting trip, serious range work. Never been much of an issue.

The second part, shooting till groups start falling off, 200, 300, I've even read 500+? That's going to be personal preference, personally, I do not fall into this camp. My velocities, data, is based off relatively clean bores, sub 60-100 rounds. That said I'm interested in running something to higher round counts and noting group size, velocity and velocity spreads, but want to get a borescope prior to this too.

My POI shift is not as bad as in the first post but I do only have custom tubes (maybe this one was too, didn't see it ), still get about a MOA shift, typically in that same direction..., I also clean out the copper, every time. I've never had any issues with 2-3 rounds getting me back to my zero. My velocity and spread is very consistent as well.

So, yes, its bad to go into the field with a squeaky clean bore....but making the leap to because of this you never want to clean,,is a bit of a leap too, each rifle is going to be different.

 

[engineer40]

I agree with everything you stated youngtrout. I also have realized for many years that we have a POI shift from a clean barrel. I just never saw how much of a POI shift until I shot the other day. It definitely surprised me!

This was not a custom barrel.

 

[youngtrout]

engineer40

I will say your shift is a bit more than I've seen at 100. And its good for folks to know. It was good it settled down in a couple shots too. I've never experienced it, factory or custom, a rifle needing more than 5 shots to "settle down"

I'm trying to wrap my head around this whole, copper equilibrium. At first blush it seems like it was created from folks who just don't like to clean a rifle LOL. But you sure see this a lot from the PRS or tactical type shooters. My high volume comp shooting has been F-Class, so around 70-80 shots per outing. Depending on how many sighters you were allowed at the first range, I always went with a clean bore, but fired 2 to foul and I was good for the day.

For years, my "secret" fix for a buddies gun, or a new, used purchase to get it shooting small was just to clean it. I understand this is a bit different. In all these cases these were neglected firearms for the most part, the copper and carbon was pretty extreme

I can't imagine firing 200 plus out of some of my magnums, but with popular PRS calibers maybe the lower pressure comes into play? I'd worry about the condition of my throat shooting something like my 6.5saum or a 300wm. I actually hit these with a paste type cleaner at around 200 rounds and clean at about the 50 round mark in-between, maybe overkill but it works for me. The school of though that you keep this area polished, and the pours of the steel closed.

I'm going to give it a go with a new 223 (higher volume between cleaning), just keep shooting till groups fall off or I just cant take it anymore, also want to really look at velocity before and after too. I'm not a PRS shooter, keeping my bores relatively clean gives me confidence on my velocities and zero for hunting.

Who knows!

 

[EdWalton]

I bought my Remington 700 Mountain Rifle more than twenty years ago. The 300 Winchester was the largest cartridge I'd ever fired. So the first year I fired thirty boxes of factory ammo to get use to the recoil (I still have the boxes of spent shells). But at about ten shots the bolt would become extremely difficult to lift. So I started running a patch or snake through it after every three or five shot group, then scrub it at the house after each session.

The little barrel still shoots, my long range rig is a work in progress. I've attached the rifle's actioned barrel to a HS Precision stock then mounted a Schmidt & Bender 5-25 x 56 scope. I'm on a twenty-four inch steel plate at six hundred yards. Still I clean it after every five shot group, I run an oiled patch through the bore before laying down if I've been in the stand with it.

I've never reloaded metallic cartridges. Is it the powder in the Remington factory ammo that was causing my problem?

 

[4xforfun]

I never really paid much attention to this topic untill I started shooting 1000 yard BR. Then it became very, very clear. Every time ..... the first shot out of a clean BBL on the 1000 yard target was 1- 1.5 moa LOW. EVERY TIME. I never saw any left / right on the sighter target. Just vertical. Every BBL on every gun I fired every time!!!.....and that is a butt load of tubes. If there was any L/R on paper, it was still there after the second shot.....just higher on the paper. I never adjusted my scope till the third shot...unless I was actually off of the paper.

Your target is showing a high/left miss for shot 1. Is this one token group? 5 groups? 10 groups?


More info...more groups.

 

[engineer40]

.....and that is a butt load of tubes.

Taken out of context, your one statement there made me chuckle. Moving on...


It's one group since I cleaned it just one time at the range that day. With the loads I worked up for it, I group right around .27-.29 inches at 100 yards. You can see my first group I shot (right before I cleaned the barrel) was larger than I normally shoot with it.

That's when I decided to clean the barrel. Just to see what would happen. Reminder that this is the only rifle I have not been cleaning regularly as an experiment to the "copper equilibrium" theories out there.

I believe what you state your results are. However I still think it's interesting that my first shot was the furthest away. The 2nd shot was a bit closer but moving in the same direction. Then shots 3,4, and 5 were right together.

This is a stock Remington 783 barrel with a DIY barrel threading job (for a muzzle brake) I did in my basement with hand tools. By all rights, it shouldn't even be shooting very good to begin with.