I'm indecisive. Help me choose a caliber.

[Trickymissfit]

Taking your price range into consideration and the fact that you already like Savage rifles, I'm not sure how you could look past any of the Savage models chambered in 6.5-284.

I'm no particular fan of Savage rifles but they are probably one of, if not, the best shooting rifles you can buy right off the shelf. Especially the ones in 6.5-284. I'm not sure which model 11 it is, maybe the LR Hunter or something like that, but it's pretty close to your price range and it is in a synthetic stock w/adjustable check piece, has a 1-8tw barrel that will shoot the 140's and also comes with a brake. I remember reading a review on one and everyone was VERY impressed with how well it shot right out of the box.

With the 6.5-284 you would get to use Lapua brass and that alone would give it serious bonus points in my book, not to mention the fact that the 6.5-284 chambering is inherently very accurate.

This is probably the easiest route to goto. The Savage is a little longer than the Remington, and that may end up being a factor to the better. A 26" barrel is way more than enough for any caliber mentioned, but as you'd have with anything longer you'll see increases barrel harmonics that may well lead to other problems. The cheapest route would be a simple 6BR in a 1:8 barrel. Or better yet one of the go between wildcats (remember we're just paper punching). I honestly think the 6.5's are the easiest to get there without heading upto a 30 caliber. The Savage will handle the .257AI necked upto 6.5 in the single shot action, but you may see a problem when using a magazine with 140 grain AMAX bullets. Might look at a 6.5x55AI. These two rounds are just about perfect for the bore size to powder burn ratio. But a 6BR with a 23" # seven barrel in a 1:8 twist would seriously surprise you shooting 105 grain AMAX bullets at about 2800fps
gary

 

[junkpile]

I guess I'm just not sold on the idea of buying a stock factory rifle for $1k when I can probably put together something special with a better barrel and a better trigger for the same price or less. Am I under-estimating? Haven't tried building a full custom before. But I have been seeing Savages listed for as low as $200 lately.

I'm thinking that if I want to reach out past 1000 yards, that I'll probably need to get into one of the 338's. My logic says to separate the two into purpose-built guns rather than compromising and doing it with one.

So what am I looking at in terms of effective range and trajectory with the 6.5-284?
How does it compare to the 7mm Rem Mag?
What about 7mm STW? Or the 7mm-08?
And what are the best long range bullets and weights for 6.5 and 7mm?
Are there some charts somewhere that I can find this information? I've only got a couple reloading manuals, but the don't give anything besides the supposed MV.

 

[Buano]

I guess I'm just not sold on the idea of buying a stock factory rifle for $1k when I can probably put together something special with a better barrel and a better trigger for the same price or less. Am I under-estimating? Haven't tried building a full custom before. But I have been seeing Savages listed for as low as $200 lately.

I'm thinking that if I want to reach out past 1000 yards, that I'll probably need to get into one of the 338's. My logic says to separate the two into purpose-built guns rather than compromising and doing it with one.

So what am I looking at in terms of effective range and trajectory with the 6.5-284?
How does it compare to the 7mm Rem Mag?
What about 7mm STW? Or the 7mm-08?
And what are the best long range bullets and weights for 6.5 and 7mm?
Are there some charts somewhere that I can find this information? I've only got a couple reloading manuals, but the don't give anything besides the supposed MV.

I'll try answering all your questions:

I would expect any Savage you see for $300 or less is an older version without either Accutrigger or Accustock. These can still be shooters if you get lucky, as I have an older stock Savage .243 I picked up used for a "barn gun" for my dad that put 5-shots through the same hole the first time I shot it. These are not the quality of the newer Savages that you should expect to be VERY accurate, especially in their long-range hunter configuration.

The Accutrigger on modern Savages is a technological breakthrough that gives them an accuracy advantage over ALL other rifle manufacturers. They created the first relatively inexpensive trigger that can be set very light for maximum accuracy and still be safe.

The 7 MM Rem mag is a good round that will easily do what you want, punch paper to 1,000 yards & kill deer to 800 yards, so will the 6.5-284.

The 7 MM STW and the 7 MM RUM (very similar) add considerably more powder to give you a faster bullet with a flatter trajectory than the 7 MM Rem. Each of these will take deer at 1,000 yards if you can shoot them that well. Because of the extreme amount of powder you should expect a shorter barrel life and considerably more muzzle-blast.

The 7 MM-08 is a necked down .308 cartridge that has much less velocity and energy than the 7 MM Rem mag. I consider it at most a 500-600 yard deer gun although I know others will disagree.

The 7 MM Rem mag is not a bad choice for what you are wanting to do. It's a very good choice. For the same reasons you are leaning towards it, I chose it as my first medium-game/big-game rifle long ago. I still have that 7 MM although I haven't shot it in 3 years. I think the point of the comment on the stock 6.5-284 was to let you know there are options you may not have considered, not to say you were headed a "bad" direction.

Many long-range shooters are shooting 6.5 MM / .264 bullets because of the high BC values some .264 bullets have that keep the bullets from losing energy as fast as most bullets as they travel long distances. Largely because of hand loaders and high-BC bullets the .260 Rem, 6.5-284, and .264 Win Mag are seeing a surge in popularity. (The .264 Win mag is the 7 MM Rem necked down slightly.) If I had it to do over again, my first deer/elk rifle would have been a .264 Win mag instead of a 7 MM Rem mag.

To compare cartridges you can go to any of several on-line ballistics packages, including the one on this site (That I have never used).

If you are serious about later adding a .338 mag for LONG distance shooting I would lean towards going smaller on the gun you are getting/building now and opt for a .264, whether the 6.5-284 or the .264 Win mag. Smaller will mean more comfortable and less expensive shooting.

If a later .338 is only a possibility, I think the 7 MM Rem mag, the 6.5-284 or the .264 Win mag (along with the .270 WSM) are a coin flip from each other with each having adherents and supporters.

The main reason for going custom on a LONG range rifle is to get it to handle things a stock rifle will not. The biggest issue with most stock rifles & LONG range use (other than accuracy) is that cartridges loaded with the high BC Berger bullets will not feed through most stock magazines. For this reason you'll see .270 WSM rifles built on long actions and that's why you will see semi-stock rifles with different "bottom metal".

Hope this helps!

 

[Trickymissfit]

I guess I'm just not sold on the idea of buying a stock factory rifle for $1k when I can probably put together something special with a better barrel and a better trigger for the same price or less. Am I under-estimating? Haven't tried building a full custom before. But I have been seeing Savages listed for as low as $200 lately.

I'm thinking that if I want to reach out past 1000 yards, that I'll probably need to get into one of the 338's. My logic says to separate the two into purpose-built guns rather than compromising and doing it with one.

So what am I looking at in terms of effective range and trajectory with the 6.5-284?
How does it compare to the 7mm Rem Mag?
What about 7mm STW? Or the 7mm-08?
And what are the best long range bullets and weights for 6.5 and 7mm?
Are there some charts somewhere that I can find this information? I've only got a couple reloading manuals, but the don't give anything besides the supposed MV.

The 6.5-.284 or a 6.5-06 would be where to start
gary

 

[Trickymissfit]

I'll try answering all your questions:

I would expect any Savage you see for $300 or less is an older version without either Accutrigger or Accustock. These can still be shooters if you get lucky, as I have an older stock Savage .243 I picked up used for a "barn gun" for my dad that put 5-shots through the same hole the first time I shot it. These are not the quality of the newer Savages that you should expect to be VERY accurate, especially in their long-range hunter configuration.

The Accutrigger on modern Savages is a technological breakthrough that gives them an accuracy advantage over ALL other rifle manufacturers. They created the first relatively inexpensive trigger that can be set very light for maximum accuracy and still be safe.

The 7 MM Rem mag is a good round that will easily do what you want, punch paper to 1,000 yards & kill deer to 800 yards, so will the 6.5-284.

The 7 MM STW and the 7 MM RUM (very similar) add considerably more powder to give you a faster bullet with a flatter trajectory than the 7 MM Rem. Each of these will take deer at 1,000 yards if you can shoot them that well. Because of the extreme amount of powder you should expect a shorter barrel life and considerably more muzzle-blast.

The 7 MM-08 is a necked down .308 cartridge that has much less velocity and energy than the 7 MM Rem mag. I consider it at most a 500-600 yard deer gun although I know others will disagree.

The 7 MM Rem mag is not a bad choice for what you are wanting to do. It's a very good choice. For the same reasons you are leaning towards it, I chose it as my first medium-game/big-game rifle long ago. I still have that 7 MM although I haven't shot it in 3 years. I think the point of the comment on the stock 6.5-284 was to let you know there are options you may not have considered, not to say you were headed a "bad" direction.

Many long-range shooters are shooting 6.5 MM / .264 bullets because of the high BC values some .264 bullets have that keep the bullets from losing energy as fast as most bullets as they travel long distances. Largely because of hand loaders and high-BC bullets the .260 Rem, 6.5-284, and .264 Win Mag are seeing a surge in popularity. (The .264 Win mag is the 7 MM Rem necked down slightly.) If I had it to do over again, my first deer/elk rifle would have been a .264 Win mag instead of a 7 MM Rem mag.

To compare cartridges you can go to any of several on-line ballistics packages, including the one on this site (That I have never used).

If you are serious about later adding a .338 mag for LONG distance shooting I would lean towards going smaller on the gun you are getting/building now and opt for a .264, whether the 6.5-284 or the .264 Win mag. Smaller will mean more comfortable and less expensive shooting.

If a later .338 is only a possibility, I think the 7 MM Rem mag, the 6.5-284 or the .264 Win mag (along with the .270 WSM) are a coin flip from each other with each having adherents and supporters.

The main reason for going custom on a LONG range rifle is to get it to handle things a stock rifle will not. The biggest issue with most stock rifles & LONG range use (other than accuracy) is that cartridges loaded with the high BC Berger bullets will not feed through most stock magazines. For this reason you'll see .270 WSM rifles built on long actions and that's why you will see semi-stock rifles with different "bottom metal".

Hope this helps!

One factor that's been left out is that if you opt for the 6.5/.284, and then buy a .338 mag barrel; you'll also have to change out the bolt head. But if you go with a 7mm mag (whichever one), all you need is the barrel. Of course if you went with a .300WSM (or 7mm WSM) you could simply install a .338 RCM barrel. I kinda like the WSM series as they allow you a little more flexability in the over all length area. If it were my gun, I'd probably do a 7mm WBY mag and a .338 Win mag as they both use the same bolt head. Of course you could get very serious and do the .358 Norma mag or even the .358 ST Alaskan.
gary

 

[Buano]

One factor that's been left out is that if you opt for the 6.5/.284, and then buy a .338 mag barrel; you'll also have to change out the bolt head. But if you go with a 7mm mag (whichever one), all you need is the barrel. Of course if you went with a .300WSM (or 7mm WSM) you could simply install a .338 RCM barrel. I kinda like the WSM series as they allow you a little more flexability in the over all length area. If it were my gun, I'd probably do a 7mm WBY mag and a .338 Win mag as they both use the same bolt head. Of course you could get very serious and do the .358 Norma mag or even the .358 ST Alaskan.
gary

I presumed he meant he would be getting another rifle to add a 338 to his mix. If not, you are 100% right.

 

[junkpile]

Correct. It would be a second, dedicated rifle. Not a fan of having to go through a full sight-in process if I wanted to use a different caliber.

Anyway, appreciate the input. You guys gave me a lot more to think about on this. Currently, I'm planning on going with 6.5-284. It apparently has the best of everything I'm looking for.

 

[OKIE2]

If you have the savage long action then for $340.00 you can get a 7mag and a 264 mag 26 inch barrels from e r shaw. I have bought 4 different calibers from them and all are very accurate barrels
I bought 264 mag 270 wsm 6.5 rem mag and 300 wsm.
These were in the white I blued them myself.

 

[Speck]

Nothing wrong with the 308 for what you want to do. 1k paper is a breeze with some of the high BC bullets available. Deer to 800 is a breeze as well. Running 208 amax's you have identical windage as the highly esteemed 260 rem which is known to have excellent wind fighting capabilities but the 208 offers 30% more energy at 1k. When the new Nosler bullets come out the 190 and 210 will redefine the 308's capabilities.

That said, the 260 is a good choice, 243 ok, 708, 284 etc...all will get it done. Don't need 70 grains of powder nor 30 pounds of recoil to do what you want.

I recommend 24-26" for the 308 and 11 or 10 twist. 12 is ok but you will be limited. It will handle the 208s but may not handle the 210 Nosler as will will be quite a bit longer. The 10 twist is for if you ever decide to run some of the heavier mono metal bullets.

Totally agree, only thing I would do different from what you recommend is a longer barrel 28-30 inch. I shoot 600-1000 yards with mine easily.

 

[ddyrcz06]

This is my first post to any discussion board EVER...so I hope I am doing it right. I recently finished my build that has been a year in the making and it sounds like choosing your gun/caliber/bullet has created more questions than answers (much like it did me). I am not a pro and by no means an expert but I did find out a lot along the way. I found that in the end that is why there are hundreds of caliber in a reloading manual because one round will do something the other can't. Some calibers do things very closely, and if like myself you wanted something to an all around good job at everything you have to decide what you want it to be. Anyways I say all of that to say I set out some things that were a must when I started building my rifle.

1. I wanted to build on a Savage action so I could install/chang the barrel.
2. I wanted a gun that I could grow to learn to accurately shoot out to 1000+ yards
3. I wanted a caliber that would pretty much cover game from ground hogs to bear.
4. I wanted it to double as a target rifle for punching paper and steel
5. My bullet had to have good down range energy (1000ft/lbs@1K) and provide wind kicking B.C's
6. Easy to reload/find components for and easy to make accurate
7. I wanted a budget build under $1500 (Custom and under $1500 do not work!!!)
8. Moderate recoil that is fun to shoot all day
9. Good barrel life

As I started searching around I found this was a tall order and was much harder than I had originally thought. In the past I had been shooting a .308 with some handloads that was very accurate but I wanted something flatter and faster. I shot at medium ranges of 4-600 yards( a chip shot for the pro's) quite a bit and became addicted when I started ringing steel at 500 consistently.

Long story short after finally deciding 15 times over again I purchased a barrel chambered in .280 rem. I had a savage 110 cheapo that I had picked up for $250. I went with a McGowen 30" barrel, 18 oz trigger job, XLR stock, crazy scope, muzzle brake, cosine ind, level, etc. My budget was completely blown, but at the end of the day you could not pry this rifle from me. I say all of that to say make an informed decision on something you will love and get ALOT of trigger time. I have seen many times a very accurate gun that was inaccurate due to its trigger actuator!.lightbulb

I returned from the range with a grin from ear to ear, I shot several .3 inch groups while working up ladder loads and found the sweet spot. I was amazed when my chrony gave me a M.V. of 3090fps avg. I am loading 162 AMAX's and H1000, 10 thousandths off the lands. The C.O.L. is a lot longer than the book. I know this is fast but all loads were carefully worked up to and there were no pressure signs (not even close). I guess all the times I had read that a 280 can nip at the heels of 7 mag can be true.

Long first post I know but in the end get what you want, find what will do the best as close as you can get it to and have fun with your new gun whatever it is. In three shooting sessions with my gun I have already had questions/comments like, why that caliber and not this one, I have this and it shoots good, I don't like that round, my dad told me this, if you think that is good you should try this caliber etc. I have also recieved a plethora of questions and a lot of nods of approval lol

Here's a pic (hopefully)

 

[ddyrcz06]

I hope this pic is easier to see.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Wow what a stock!! Tell me about it!!

well reading your post and thoughts with the added word "bear" taken into thought (black bear I'd assume). Here's my take on the .308 and what you are asking for.

* the .308 will for sure shoot nicely out to 1000 yards or so, but it's also about done at those ranges. 30-06 is not much better as well. I think I'd drop down to something like a .280 Remington or a 6.5 something. The 180 grain Amax has a B/C slightly under .50, and in the Hornaday manual they show 2500fps as max (seems a bit slow). A heavy does of 2460 ought to easilly get you 2700fps with the same bullet in a 24" barrel (or RL15 and 2520). On the otherhand a 30-06 will give you about a 100 to 150fps more velocity out of a 24" barrel. I personally like something in between the two.

* now we've hashed over the more common 30's in a standard Mauser bolt head. Let's look at someothers
1. the .280 is just a great round. Very accurate, and there is an extremely good bullet selection to shoose from (7mm). Hornaday gets 2800fps with a 160 grain SST! That bullet has a .55 B/C, and will shoot flatter than the 180 grain 30 calibers while still retaining more velocity down range (meaning more power). The AMAX is claimed to have a B/C of .62 at the same velocity. I see nothing but a winner here!!!

2. the 6.5-06 is another great round (as is the 6.5/.284). Recoil will be slightly milder than the 7mm, and even more milder than the 30's. The B/C of the 140 grain SST is a .52, and their Amax is .55. The 6.5-06 will do 2900fps, and once again a winner. Either of these rounds and the .280 should shoot well out to 1000yards (hell I can't see that far). The nice thing about the 6.5 and to a certain extent the 7mm is that there are some nice light weight bullets for varmiting.. But of these rounds my favorites would be the 7x57AI and the 6.5x57AI Mauser rounds. Both will push 140 grain bullets close to 3000fps with a shorter case and a better fit in the mag well with those long high B/C bullets (better case design as well). I really call out those two as winners!

gary

 

[ddyrcz06]

Thanks, the stock is an XLR Industries evolution tactical stock. wait time was 10-12 weeks but worth every second. I was referring to black bears for sure since there is no grizz down here in OK (that I know of, LOL). I couldn't agree with you more about the 280 rem, as I love mine. Recoil is plenty soft since I have a break and the rifle tips the scale at 17.5lbs, and the recoil is far less than my 308 shooting heavies.

 

[Trickymissfit]

Thanks, the stock is an XLR Industries evolution tactical stock. wait time was 10-12 weeks but worth every second. I was referring to black bears for sure since there is no grizz down here in OK (that I know of, LOL). I couldn't agree with you more about the 280 rem, as I love mine. Recoil is plenty soft since I have a break and the rifle tips the scale at 17.5lbs, and the recoil is far less than my 308 shooting heavies.

honestly for black bear and deer (I used to live near Lawton) the .257 Roberts would work fine with proper bullet selection, but I think the sevens would be a tad better. The 57mm case length dosn't work well in a Remington short action even though they've chambered it from time t time. OK with light and short bullets but not those 117 grain ones. A Savage is a little longer (about .150") and ought to work fine. But none of the 30-06 case lengths will work in the short actions. You must havea long action.

The 7x57AI is Ackley's best improved round (he said that more than once). It will give you ballistics right up there with a .280 Remington out of a mid sized case length. Has the desired longer neck and sharp shoulder angle. Barrel ought to be good for at least 2,000 rounds. Fire form cases by firing factory 7x57 rounds thru the barrel. What you'll end up with in the end is a .257 Ackley necked up to 7mm. Of course you could simply chamber a 6.5/.284, but I'd rather have the smaller diameter case. The samething could be said about the 6.5AI round as well, I might add.
gary