How much bullet needed in the neck?

[PGJPJ]

I've heard that you should have at least 1 caliber of the bearing surface of the bullet in the neck for good neck tension. I tried searching the mighty internet, and there appears to be a variety of opinions on this.

Is there any truth to this? I'm asking because I have a fairly long throat, but also a very long magazine. I can seat to the lands, but I'd only have 0.183" in a 0.284 caliber.

This is a 280ai, and I'm trying to load 168 grain Berger VLD.

Thanks!

 

[PackersFanboy]

depends bullet and how far off the lands. I tried moving bullet far forward on shot out factory barrel. Pressure issues only using half the neck Delay in pressure. Case by case in bullet how far from the lands. (using factory 7mm rem mag barrel 1k shots down the barrel land where really far out 1/2 bullet neck huge delay). small bullet that still needs jump to lands and only using half or less neck might run into issue

 

[Deleted member 46119]

It's a lot more complicated than any of that.

I load a 223 to .183 of bearing surface in the neck. It's the only way that rifle shoots.

Some bullet/chambering/rifle combinations want more or less.

I recommend you get a full set of COAL tools
Hornady Lock-N-Load Overall Length Ga Bolt Action
Hornady Lock-N-Load Overall Length Ga Modified Case 280 Remington 7mm

You have about .340 of neck length with that 280.

Get the tools and ask the next portion of the question. How far off the lands for which bullet.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

Oh, forgot.

Follow the manual.

Moving from the manual cartridge lengths is moving into advanced reloading. BE really careful.

 

[J E Custom]

I've heard that you should have at least 1 caliber of the bearing surface of the bullet in the neck for good neck tension. I tried searching the mighty internet, and there appears to be a variety of opinions on this.

Is there any truth to this? I'm asking because I have a fairly long throat, but also a very long magazine. I can seat to the lands, but I'd only have 0.183" in a 0.284 caliber.

This is a 280ai, and I'm trying to load 168 grain Berger VLD.

Thanks!

It has more to do with the surface contact the brass has with the bullet.

The smaller the caliber the longer the neck needs to be to have enough bearing surface.

It is traditional to have approximately one caliber of neck length but some cartridges fall far short
of that Example= the 300 win mag has a neck length of .264 (.044 shorter than .308). Your 280 AI is .346 (.062 longer than the .284 diameter)

The main thing is to have enough neck engagement to position the bullet straight and control the
base of the bullet while entering the rifling. If the bullet you want to use has a short body and you have a long freebore the body of the bullet can leave the neck before it engages the rifling and can cause accuracy issues. the same goes for a neck that is to short.

As far as the bullet gripping in relation to the bullet, the bigger the bullet diameter the less neck length is required because of the surface area of the neck (3.1416 X the bullet diameter x the neck length will give you the surface area of the neck.

With the .284 diameter I would not recommend going that short.

J E CUSTOM

 

[FearNoWind]

It is traditional to have approximately one caliber of neck length ...

I'm in total agreement with J E Custom. I've known of a few small caliber rifles being used with bullets seated so short that they'd almost fall out of the neck; only stayed in the case because the rifling held them in place when they were jammed.
Not a good idea. I would stick with J E Custom's guidance on this one.

 

[Mikecr]

I don't agree with absolute use of manuals, rules of thumb, or wives tales.
I fully test seating depths for best with a given barrel/cartridge/bullet and go with that best.
As far as grip on bullet bearing, the less you have the lower the variance in it,, if it happens that your gun likes it, then double the gain.

This follows other balances in reloading, and accuracy in general. Lowest, lightest, smallest means to an end.

 

[J E Custom]

To add to my earlier post, I am neither for or against certain neck lengths, just warning against the improper length for the method loaded and the bullet used.

I have wildcats that have necks that are much less than One caliber, they also have lots of freebore
but they shoot lights out because I use the proper bullets and seat them correctly for optimum performance.

Neck lengths and seating depths will never be agreed on by all, so We will never come to a unanimous consensus and that's perfectly ok as long as you know the effects of your decision and ways to deal with it.

I HAVE found that extremely short necks do a poor job of bullet alignment and a concentricity tool is recommended when loading for this condition.

In My opinion, Seating a bullet very shallow in the neck just to get the bullet to touch the lands and get more case capacity is not the best solution to get accuracy or velocity.

Just an opinion

J E CUSTOM

 

[PGJPJ]

Thanks! This isn't where I'd like to be, I'm not trying to gain anything by being seated that far out. I'd be perfectly happy if those Bergers lived a 0.12" jump, but so far it appears they like to be closer to the lands. My next round of testing puts me right at the lands, I'm struggling to gut the 168 Berger VLD to shoot well.

If I can't get those to work, I've reveiwed the dimensions of the 168 Berger classic hunter, and it has a much longer base to ogive. It may also like a bit of a jump, so I'd probably have plenty seated in the neck.

 

[Edd]

If you need something with a long bearing surface, look at a Swift Scirocco.

 

[J E Custom]

Thanks! This isn't where I'd like to be, I'm not trying to gain anything by being seated that far out. I'd be perfectly happy if those Bergers lived a 0.12" jump, but so far it appears they like to be closer to the lands. My next round of testing puts me right at the lands, I'm struggling to gut the 168 Berger VLD to shoot well.

If I can't get those to work, I've reveiwed the dimensions of the 168 Berger classic hunter, and it has a much longer base to ogive. It may also like a bit of a jump, so I'd probably have plenty seated in the neck.

A good friend that shoots nothing but Bergers had the same problem. He decided to go the other way and seated the bullets very deep. He started with .060 of the lands and saw an improvement
so he kept increasing it until he got the best group and SDs.

He ended up with .110 jump and is thrilled that It shoots less than 1/4 MOA at 300 yards.

Everything fits the magazine so it also eliminated single loading.

Something to try

J E CUSTOM

 

[FearNoWind]

... He started with .060 of the lands and saw an improvement so he kept increasing it until he got the best group and SDs.

He ended up with .110 jump and is thrilled that It shoots less than 1/4 MOA at 300 yards.

Everything fits the magazine so it also eliminated single loading.

Something to try

J E CUSTOM

I had a similar experience.

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD Bullets in Your Rifle | Berger Bullets Blog

 

[Rich Coyle]

PGJPJ,

The bullets in a .223 I had were seated into the neck only .120" and were always less than 1/2MOA. I made a wildcat .224 that had a neck only .125" and it was a guaranteed 4/10 MOA. I made a .257 wildcat and to maximize case volume used a .3/16" neck. It was a regular 3/4MOA.

I made a .224 wildcat with a 7/16" long neck and have not got it to shoot better than 1MOA. I will work on it a little more. I have a new 6.5mm wildcat that uses a .340" neck and the whole bullet is in the neck and the best I can do is 1 1/2MOA. I don't see rhyme or reason to what does or doesn't work for me.

After reading this prior to posting, it sure seems I need to use less bullet in the neck for best accuracy!

 

[J E Custom]

I had a similar experience.

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD Bullets in Your Rifle | Berger Bullets Blog

It is refreshing to see someone finally admit that all rifles shoot all bullets differently.

I commend Berger for there openness and fair assessment of bullet seating.

It is sometimes hard to break away from tried and true methods and move out into uncharted territory. (Think out side the box) but in some cases it paws off.

I have had many instances where my beliefs held me back before I finally relented and tried something else. Now I believe there is no "only one way to do something". I prove myself wrong
every day.

J E CUSTOM