How can the same cartridges legally simultaneously exist?

[375rifleman]

Hello I was just wondering how cartridges like the 300 blackout, the .300 fireball, .300 whisper, .300-221, and the 7.62x35mm can all legally exist at the same time since they are all basically the same rifle cartridge? I've been thinking of possibly duplicating another rifle cartridge but don't want to get in trouble.

 

[FURMAN]

Are you just wanting to "wildcat"? I can not imagine any trouble as long as you are not trying to commercialize.

 

[MudRunner2005]

You can build as many wildcats as you want...Call them whatever you want...Give them the exact dimensions as any other cartridge out there... But it's the guy who spends the dough to have a cartridge SAAMI standardized (in this case Advanced Armamant Corporation), that wins the official industry title of the cartridge.

Also, the .300 AAC Blackout, is actually 7.62x35mm in metric dimensions, so I don't know if I'd call the 7.62x35mm a "different" wildcat version of the same cartridge.

I mean, for a while, the .300 Whisper was around and was SAAMI spec'd, and it is VERY similar to the .300 Blackout. I remember seeing a .300 Whisper 16+ years ago. They're just slightly different in dimensions. And sometimes all it takes is a few slight dimensional changes for something to be considered a "different" cartridge. For example, .300 Whisper uses .221 Fireball cases as the parent case, and the .300 Blackout uses full-wall thickness cut-down .223/5.56 brass, which changes the neck dimensions and increases chamber pressures. Although they look the same, they are slightly different enough to be considered two different cartridges.

 

[375rifleman]

OK thanks everyone for clarifying this for me. Just to be sure I understand correctly I can basically create as many wildcat rifle cartridges that I want regardless how similar the dimensions are to another rifle cartridge or wildcat right?
Thanks,
375rifleman

 

[MudRunner2005]

OK thanks everyone for clarifying this for me. Just to be sure I understand correctly I can basically create as many wildcat rifle cartridges that I want regardless how similar the dimensions are to another rifle cartridge or wildcat right?
Thanks,
375rifleman

I think you're misunderstanding what we're saying... What we're saying is that people have done that in the past, and it's a VERY slippery slope. The first guy to shuck out the money to get something SAAMI standardized, becomes the big man on campus. All the rest are simply non-official wildcats that usually end up dying off because everyone focuses on the official cartridge that was crowned and legitimized by SAAMI.

I wouldn't copy someone else's work exactly and then try to market it as "original" to you...You can get sued for that, if they can prove they had it first. Some people, might have patents on names and cartridges that are not SAAMI spec'd... If you copied something like that, you'd be up a certain creek without a paddle, in the courtroom.

Wildcatting is not about taking a good thing that already exists, and passing it off as your own. It's about trailblazing where others haven't dared to explore yet. What I'm getting at, is be original, and don't just go copy someone else's hard work. That's kind of an a-hole thing to do...You know what I mean?

 

[375rifleman]

I am probably not going to copy it exactly since after developing loads that would work best in my particular rifle with original design it would undoubtedly need to be modified but someone could say that it's still so close to the original design that it would be copyright infringement.

 

[MudRunner2005]

The performance and load data has absolutely nothing to do with infringement... The external dimensions and case shape and design of the cartridge itself has everything to do with it.

I still don't think you're understanding... It's not a good idea to copy someone else's cartridge and name it a wildcat.

 

[jrsolocam]

The performance and load data has absolutely nothing to do with infringement... The external dimensions and case shape and design of the cartridge itself has everything to do with it.

I still don't think you're understanding... It's not a good idea to copy someone else's cartridge and name it a wildcat.

Im not a patent attorney, but this makes good sense...

 

[Rich Coyle]

My 6.5SLR duplicates a .264 Win Mag in capacity and performance. But it looks like a .257 Weatherby without a belt. No infringement on a Winchester design or a Weatherby design.

 

[Deleted member 48126]

Simplest terms, wildcat all you want, reload all you want, just don't pass it off as an original creation (if its not) and do not try to commercialize it if it is not an original design (sell it).

Example:

Me: I created a super cool wildcat that I am going to patent!

Customer: What is it?

Me: I took a .223 Remington, cut it off at the shoulder, sized it to .308! It can run as fast as 2,300 FPS, but it can still run in an AR and suppressed / subsonic! I will call it the .308 Quiet Riot!! A box of 20 is $23.50 at my shop.

Customer: Bro, that's a .300 Blackout. You'll get fined or go to jail for copy right infringement.

Me: Oh, well ****. Back to the drawing boards.

 

[MudRunner2005]

My 6.5SLR duplicates a .264 Win Mag in capacity and performance. But it looks like a .257 Weatherby without a belt. No infringement on a Winchester design or a Weatherby design.

Exactly! I've drawn-up over 200 different wildcats, but ended up scrapping about half of them because I felt they were too close to something else to be an "original". If I design a wildcat, I may have certain performance criteria in mind, but I won't be copying a SAAMI spec'd cartridge or a known-wildcat in dimensions and trying to call it my own.

Example, I created a wildcat that was a .280 AI improved (not what I called it), but found out later that Rich Sherman had already created his .280 Sherman, which is basically what I had drawn-up. So I scrapped it. It's called being courteous to your fellow wildcatters. Could I have kept it? I'm sure Rich would not have minded, being that I didn't realize it was already a cartridge at the time I had designed it, but I decided to completely scrap it. I want mine to be 100% original and different than anyone else's cartridges.

 

[Deleted member 46119]

In its most general sense, a fair use is any copying of copyrighted material done for a limited and "transformative" purpose, such as to comment upon, criticize, or parody a copyrighted work. Such uses can be done without permission from the copyright owner.

https://fairuse.stanford.edu/overview/fair-use/what-is-fair-use/

It would be flat uncool to copy someone else's design and call it your own. Similar is not the same. If you make a 1° change in shoulder angle and call it something different, the designed has been transformed. If you go into commercial production and cause confusion in the market and safety issues the original copyright holder may have cause for enforcement.

If you make up something exactly the same as and never "sell" anything having to do with it, the original copyright holder would have to show what harm was done. Since you probably would not purchase her/his stuff, she/he is at no loss or harm.

I make my own 257 Roberts brass from 30-06 or 7x57. Is it 257 Roberts brass, technically no. Have I violated any copyrights no. Have I caused any harm in which enforcement would prevail no. If I took my re-manufactured 30-06 into 257 Roberts and marketed it would there be problems, oh yeah. I am quite certain of that. Even though we can't get Remington to make any 257 Roberts, it would cause "material harm" in that I am not aware of Remington manufacturing and marketing plans for their property.

BTW: My 257 Roberts BPO, for Black Powder Only, is just that a low pressure Black Powder or BP substitute only cartridge that is super cheap to shoot. Much easier on the ancient 1884 Model Springfield Trapdoors than the original 45-70. Besides, I already had 2 45-70. One a 1886 manufactured in 1888 and one High Wall manufactured in 1913. Neither is a "collectible" they are shooters.