Help with rifle bounce/recoil

[Bigeclipse]

You may or may not have read a recent thread where I was having accuracy issues at 100 yards with a new lightweight 7mm-08 Savage ladyhunter rifle for my wife. It was discovered that the reasons for the bad groups had to do with the shooting setup we were using (rest, bench, and rear bag) which was causing the 5+inch groups at 100 yards. I was able to reproduce a similar effect with a known good rifle that I had with me that day and it shot 4inch groups which was the worst I had ever seen with that rifle. I am used to that rifle shooting 1.5in group (if not less) with every factory ammo I have shot out of it to date. So yesterday, to confirm my suspicions, I took the Savage Lady Hunter and instead of shooting it off the adjustable front rest I normally use for longer range shooting, I shot it off my backpack on a nice flat level table. It started down pouring so I was able to only get one 5 shot group but low and behold it shot wonderful (.75inches). All I can say is ***!!! Can rifle bouncing on my other rest on a not so great shooting table really cause such drastic difference in groups? I was just dumbfounded by this.

So has anyone else had something similar to this happen to them? How do you go about shooting your lightweight bouncy rifles (our rifles are 6-7lbs without optics)?

As an FYI, these are not long range rigs I am talking about. Max yardage would be 300 yards for these rigs and probably not even that far. For true long range rifles we have a couple heavier setups in the 10-12lb range.

 

[Wild Bill G]

How was your front bag setup and did you rest the barrel on the bag not the stock. As a guy who used to to shoot bench rest I can not see your front rest causing this problem. Another possibility is that your adjustment may have been loose and wobbly. Did you remove your sling studs when shooting from your setup as that can cause horrible groups as well if they are not removed.

 

[Bigeclipse]

How was your front bag setup and did you rest the barrel on the bag not the stock. As a guy who used to to shoot bench rest I can not see your front rest causing this problem. Another possibility is that your adjustment may have been loose and wobbly. Did you remove your sling studs when shooting from your setup as that can cause horrible groups as well if they are not removed.

I NEVER rest the barrel on anything. I use what is called the Caldwell "Rock Deluxe" shooting rest. Honestly not sure if I tightened everything down but never had to in the past 4 years with 5 other rifles. No I did not remove the sling stud BUT I always make sure that there is at least 4 inches between the rest and the stud to allow for recoil. Again, the situation I had did not involve just the rest. I think it was a number of things from the rest, to the slightly wobbly bench which does not have a hard surface but it is rather a padded spongy surface which could add movement and bounce, coupled with really light weight rifles. When I fired, there were a few times my wife said the barrel jumped up a good 6 inches and even one time where the rifle bounced completely out of the rest. All I know is I switched to shooting off my backpack AND also tried free hand and suddenly I was back to the good old 1inch group at 100 yards.

 

[sable tireur]

Here is the style of rest being discussed:

There are a number of details which will affect group size when we use any form of rest to support a rifle or even handguns. The bag itself, the type of fill, the density of the fill (or even the lack of fill) along with how the rifle fits into the bag. Compound this with the support structure or bench and a whole 'nuther can of worms gets opened up.

Suffice it to say that you were able to resolve the problem and can now relax and enjoy shooting again.

Regards.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Here is the style of rest being discussed:

There are a number of details which will affect group size when we use any form of rest to support a rifle or even handguns. The bag itself, the type of fill, the density of the fill (or even the lack of fill) along with how the rifle fits into the bag. Compound this with the support structure or bench and a whole 'nuther can of worms gets opened up.

Suffice it to say that you were able to resolve the problem and can now relax and enjoy shooting again.

Regards.

yeah. I am by no means an expert nor am I an avid shooter. I mainly hunt and really not far distances but love the idea of long range. I reload and take it serious. I like working up loads...etc. But this is the first time ive had this happen to me. I have had days where I'm just jumpy (too much caffeine) or a bit more recoil sensitive and punch the trigger. On those days...a bad group with a known good load would be 1.5-2inches at 100 yards. Never had I seen a 5inch group before this incident. I had no idea what in the heck was going on. I switched out the scope. I tried different ammo and still had 3-6inch groups. I shot maybe a total of 5 of these terrible groups. Then later that day, I decided I would take out my old Betsy trustworthy rifle.She is nothing tremendous but she ALWAYS shot under 1.5inches no matter the ammo or my nerves and has a nice crisp trigger break, and when I shot a 4inch group with her I knew something more was going on....likely with the shooting setup because that rifle bounced WAY out of the rest. So I moved the rest off the table and shot old Betsy free handed and we were back to 1-1.5inch groups. So then I took the new Ladyhunter rifle and put it on top of a backpack and it shot .75inch group during the down pour! I will shoot it again this weekend to confirm. My form with the other setup must have been terrible coupled with a spongy table and lightweight rifles with pencil barrels.

 

[memtb]

You may or may not have read a recent thread where I was having accuracy issues at 100 yards with a new lightweight 7mm-08 Savage ladyhunter rifle for my wife. It was discovered that the reasons for the bad groups had to do with the shooting setup we were using (rest, bench, and rear bag) which was causing the 5+inch groups at 100 yards. I was able to reproduce a similar effect with a known good rifle that I had with me that day and it shot 4inch groups which was the worst I had ever seen with that rifle. I am used to that rifle shooting 1.5in group (if not less) with every factory ammo I have shot out of it to date. So yesterday, to confirm my suspicions, I took the Savage Lady Hunter and instead of shooting it off the adjustable front rest I normally use for longer range shooting, I shot it off my backpack on a nice flat level table. It started down pouring so I was able to only get one 5 shot group but low and behold it shot wonderful (.75inches). All I can say is ***!!! Can rifle bouncing on my other rest on a not so great shooting table really cause such drastic difference in groups? I was just dumbfounded by this.

So has anyone else had something similar to this happen to them? How do you go about shooting your lightweight bouncy rifles (our rifles are 6-7lbs without optics)?

As an FYI, these are not long range rigs I am talking about. Max yardage would be 300 yards for these rigs and probably not even that far. For true long range rifles we have a couple heavier setups in the 10-12lb range.

Something you might try, though probably not recognized by many, is to place your weak hand on top of the scope when shooting from the bench. I had a friend that used this approach, with some pretty good "kickers", with good success! It will only take a little ammo and time to prove/disprove the idea! Good Luck memtb

 

[Adikted]

I've found that when shooting off of the bench on bags and a rest you have a tendency to place the buttstock loose into your shoulder. This allows the rifle to move inconsistently in the recoil pulse. Most benchrest rifles are built with flat forends and buttstocks so that when the rifle recoils they move in a straight line, most hunting rifles have tapered stocks on both the forend and buttstock which makes them move all over the place. I've found it to be much more pronounced with heavy calibers in light rifles. I also had issues shooting breach loaders (Thompson Center Encore) off of a rest because the forend is attached to the barrel. If your barrel is supposed to be free floated you may want to check the clearances around it because its possible that when you put the rifle on the rest that downward pressure on the grip is causing the stock to contact the barrel (had that issue with a ruger american)

 

[Wild Bill G]

I have to ask does the bag come filled on the rest by Caldwell. It really pays to take out the studs as they cause all sorts of grief. Your rifle still should have jumped up off the back pack just like the rest. I shoot my Sako 300 Weatherby one haded off of bags and it does not jump out of the grove. You should try your bags again on a solid bench. Also make sure there is sand or wheat or something in that front pouch. That rest is very similar to mine and they are fool proof when tight. PS don't forget remove the studs. If nothing else it will save the cost of a new bag.

 

[Bigeclipse]

I have to ask does the bag come filled on the rest by Caldwell. It really pays to take out the studs as they cause all sorts of grief. Your rifle still should have jumped up off the back pack just like the rest. I shoot my Sako 300 Weatherby one haded off of bags and it does not jump out of the grove. You should try your bags again on a solid bench. Also make sure there is sand or wheat or something in that front pouch. That rest is very similar to mine and they are fool proof when tight. PS don't forget remove the studs. If nothing else it will save the cost of a new bag.

The bag is filled. I've used this rest for years. But it was bouncing like crazy this past weekend. I think a combo of bad table, bad shooting positions, rushing and not taking my time all added up to this. Maybe the stud was hitting but I honestly doubt it. I watched my wife shoot the rifle and it bounced like 6 inches off the rest as she said it did with me.

 

[Fin-addictions]

I've found with really light rifles that lightly gripping the forend dispels the issue you've run into. The recoil pulse can indeed "bounce" the rifle and affect accuracy when shooting groups. By lightly holding the forend to mitigate the rifle jumping from the rest often brings the group sizes back to normal.

I've shot groups both holding the forend on light rifles, and shooting them with free recoil, and the accuracy difference is quite pronounced.

 

[J E Custom]

There are several things that could cause this. First, the solid front rest sometimes causes a shooter to muscle the rifle to the best point of aim
changing the rifles consistency. When using a rifle rest, it is best to have it aimed correctly by moving the rest before making the shot.

I have seen shooters apply down pressure to the rifle because it is just a little high rather than adjust the rest. just Like bench rest shooters like there rifles pointing dead center with out them touching them for best accuracy, we need the rifle at rest as much as possible without applying any outside forces to it for best accuracy.

The next issue that commonly causes problems is the location of the front rest on the forend. I like to place the front rest as close to the front action screw as possible for consistent support, (To far out on the forend will produce inconsistent results because every time you fire it is hard to get the rifle back to the same place/location. One reason the bipod can be so accurate is that it is in the same place every time and little if any external forces are added to the rifle.

Sporter rifles normally have a small/thin forearm to reduce weight and it can contact or load the barrel differently if great care is not taken to prevent this. Placing the rest under or very near the action can prevent this inconsistent loading of the stock.

Just a couple of suggestions to try.

J E CUSTOM

 

[Wild Bill G]

JE brought up a good point about consistent placement of the rifle. Your Caldwell rest has a L shaped device on the front side. It is there to push the forend of the rile against to have a repeatable position when shooting. It should be rubber coated so it will not scratch your stock. Another trick benchrest shooters use is baby powder on the bags so the rifle will slide freely in the bags and not cause them to slide too.
After reading your other thread why don't you build a solid bench in your yard. You will enjoy it and want to shoot more often.

 

[Bigeclipse]

JE brought up a good point about consistent placement of the rifle. Your Caldwell rest has a L shaped device on the front side. It is there to push the forend of the rile against to have a repeatable position when shooting. It should be rubber coated so it will not scratch your stock. Another trick benchrest shooters use is baby powder on the bags so the rifle will slide freely in the bags and not cause them to slide too.
After reading your other thread why don't you build a solid bench in your yard. You will enjoy it and want to shoot more often.

the solid bench idea is EXACTLY what I came up with yesterday. I will be building one that I haul away during winter but leave out during the summer months covered with a tarp or something. I will build it out of pressure treated wood as well.

 

[Wild Bill G]

If you had the room why not a covered bench you can leave there.