Help with ladder test

[Mc Fraser]

Hello All,
I have a Tikka T3 in 270 Win. I did a ladder test yesterday: 140gr Berger Classic Hunter, Nosler brass, BR-2 primer, H4831SC. Berger reloading book suggests 58gr is the max and I should get 3051 fps. Granted my barrel is 22-7/16" in length but that is almost 200 fps difference. There were no signs of pressure.
https://bergerbullets.com/pdf/270-Win-140gr.pdf
The rifle shoots 140gr Sierra SBT with the same powder 1/4MOA at 100 yds.
I couldn't seat the bullet at 3.34 as my chamber is short? I believe (99%) it was seated to 3.30, I use CBTO not COAL.
I know you want to see pictures with the shots, let's just say there where all within a 2 MOA with most of them within 1 MOA grouping at 100 yds. I just can't do long-range ladder tests, I don't have that option.

1. Based on only the information attached and above, would you give it another try or move on to another bullet/powder combo?
2. The labradar recorded a 60 fps difference between #3,4 and 5. Can that be an error? This is a purely theoretical question as I don't want to shoot a bullet at 2700 fps MV.
3. Have you seen MV speeds like this before? I am puzzled by the fact that MV is all over the place.

Thanks.

 

[nodakhunter]

The whole idea of a ladder test is to try to find a velocity node for your particular barrel/bullet combination. In my experience, if a load shows roughly the same velocity for 3 or 4 different powder charges, that is a good indication of a node. From your data, the charge weights from 57.6-58.2 gr all showed about the same velocity. A good place to start might be to load 12-15 rounds in the middle of that node (57.9 gr) and test them out. If you're happy with the velocity and accuracy, then boom, you've just found a good load without a ton of effort. As for your second question, I've noticed that same exact thing when testing loads out of a .338 Lapua over a Magnetospeed, and I have no idea why it happens either.
P.S. H4831SC is an awesome powder - works great no matter the temperature.

 

[Bigeclipse]

Hello All,
I have a Tikka T3 in 270 Win. I did a ladder test yesterday: 140gr Berger Classic Hunter, Nosler brass, BR-2 primer, H4831SC. Berger reloading book suggests 58gr is the max and I should get 3051 fps. Granted my barrel is 22-7/16" in length but that is almost 200 fps difference. There were no signs of pressure.
https://bergerbullets.com/pdf/270-Win-140gr.pdf
The rifle shoots 140gr Sierra SBT with the same powder 1/4MOA at 100 yds.
I couldn't seat the bullet at 3.34 as my chamber is short? I believe (99%) it was seated to 3.30, I use CBTO not COAL.
I know you want to see pictures with the shots, let's just say there where all within a 2 MOA with most of them within 1 MOA grouping at 100 yds. I just can't do long-range ladder tests, I don't have that option.

1. Based on only the information attached and above, would you give it another try or move on to another bullet/powder combo?
2. The labradar recorded a 60 fps difference between #3,4 and 5. Can that be an error? This is a purely theoretical question as I don't want to shoot a bullet at 2700 fps MV.
3. Have you seen MV speeds like this before? I am puzzled by the fact that MV is all over the place.

Thanks.

Ladder tests need to be done at 300+ yards if not more. Most say 500 yards is best.

If you only can shoot to 100 yards then do OCW test and also mark down shot velocities for each shot. You can then check your OCW results against your velocity speeds to confirm where an accuracy/stability node is. You can then do some bullet seating tests from there to try and tighten the groups up.

 

[nt7332]

The test you did was basically a Saterlee method it appears except with 12 rounds.

 

[entoptics]

Hello All,
I have a Tikka T3 in 270 Win. I did a ladder test yesterday:...Berger reloading book suggests 58gr is the max and I should get 3051 fps. Granted my barrel is 22-7/16" in length but that is almost 200 fps difference. ...
2. The labradar recorded a 60 fps difference between #3,4 and 5. Can that be an error? This is a purely theoretical question as I don't want to shoot a bullet at 2700 fps MV.
3. Have you seen MV speeds like this before? I am puzzled by the fact that MV is all over the place.

Thanks.

Berger is using a 26" barrel for the data you posted, which is likely to be about 100 fps faster than a 22.5" give or take.

I've had exactly ZERO success with ladder tests in 4 or 5 rifles, and a dozen or so attempts. I'd also consider a single shot not good enough for statistical significance. If you really want to continue, I'd run at least 2 if not 3 rounds at each charge.

 

[FURMAN]

You did not do a ladder test. Stop calling these ladders tests. You did a worthless Satterlee test. Just because you find a flat spot over a chrono does not mean it will be accurate. You just wasted ammo. Your description of the the groups is exactly why we dont need to see them and why the data is not useful. Either do an OCW at short range or back up to 500 plus yards and do a LADDER test. If you want to know what a ladder really is google Alex Wheeler or Jason Baney ladder test.

To answer your question I would do neither. Pick the bullet, primer, powder you want to shoot and do some real load development.

The funny thing is people will try to argue with what I just typed yet time and time again they post the "confusing" findings asking why? I answered the why above.

 

[Steelthowl]

Study Jason Barneys load testing closely. You will notice he has combined a ladder test with a round robin optimum charge weight (group) test. This is very sound data. Also look at his 1000yard 6mmBR test target -notice, if he did just one set of data it would be hard to get the correct information out. Look at 6 sets (essentially 6 shot group) and the data is much clearer. A single Ladder test string is very hard to use for long range load development. Jason's system is good or alternatively any round robin group testing at longer range or with chrony. Look for tight vertical and explore from there.

 

[FURMAN]

Study Jason Barneys load testing closely. You will notice he has combined a ladder test with a round robin optimum charge weight (group) test. This is very sound data. Also look at his 1000yard 6mmBR test target -notice, if he did just one set of data it would be hard to get the correct information out. Look at 6 sets (essentially 6 shot group) and the data is much clearer. A single Ladder test string is very hard to use for long range load development. Jason's system is good or alternatively any round robin group testing at longer range or with chrony. Look for tight vertical and explore from there.

Most of this is true but the needing multiple sets is not especially the 6 part. I have been doing ladder testing for years very similar to what Alex does and it gives the load every single time UNLESS the rifle just will not shoot that combo and that has only happened to me one time. That one time I ran it again with a different powder and done. Obviously more is great but at some point you have to acknowledge you have THE load and get to shooting.

 

[nt7332]

You did not do a ladder test. Stop calling these ladders tests. You did a worthless Satterlee test. Just because you find a flat spot over a chrono does not mean it will be accurate. You just wasted ammo. Your description of the the groups is exactly why we dont need to see them and why the data is not useful. Either do an OCW at short range or back up to 500 plus yards and do a LADDER test. If you want to know what a ladder really is google Alex Wheeler or Jason Baney ladder test.

To answer your question I would do neither. Pick the bullet, primer, powder you want to shoot and do some real load development.

The funny thing is people will try to argue with what I just typed yet time and time again they post the "confusing" findings asking why? I answered the why above.

Rude much? Dude is asking for help if u want to help u could at least not talk like he is stupid. Way to promote people asking for help.

 

[FURMAN]

Rude much? Dude is asking for help if u want to help u could at least not talk like he is stupid. Way to promote people asking for help.

Read into it what you want. It has no connotation. I stated facts. I am not here to coddle.

Would you prefer I lie to him and pretend there may be something there so he can waste more ammo? No thanks.

 

[nt7332]

No not at all, I already stated he did a saterlee test. However, how about a little guidance instead of talking down and help the man out with your infinite wisdom.

 

[FURMAN]

No not at all, I already stated he did a saterlee test. However, how about a little guidance instead of talking down and help the man out with your infinite wisdom.

I did. RE READ. Jason Baney and Alex Wheeler have the best load development you can currently read on the net. I am not going to retype what has been said.

 

[FURMAN]

Hello All,
I have a Tikka T3 in 270 Win. I did a ladder test yesterday: 140gr Berger Classic Hunter, Nosler brass, BR-2 primer, H4831SC. Berger reloading book suggests 58gr is the max and I should get 3051 fps. Granted my barrel is 22-7/16" in length but that is almost 200 fps difference. There were no signs of pressure.
https://bergerbullets.com/pdf/270-Win-140gr.pdf
The rifle shoots 140gr Sierra SBT with the same powder 1/4MOA at 100 yds.
I couldn't seat the bullet at 3.34 as my chamber is short? I believe (99%) it was seated to 3.30, I use CBTO not COAL.
I know you want to see pictures with the shots, let's just say there where all within a 2 MOA with most of them within 1 MOA grouping at 100 yds. I just can't do long-range ladder tests, I don't have that option.

1. Based on only the information attached and above, would you give it another try or move on to another bullet/powder combo?
2. The labradar recorded a 60 fps difference between #3,4 and 5. Can that be an error? This is a purely theoretical question as I don't want to shoot a bullet at 2700 fps MV.
3. Have you seen MV speeds like this before? I am puzzled by the fact that MV is all over the place.

Thanks.

HERE

https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/tuning-for-long-range.192998/

https://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ocw-test-example/4529811475

 

[nt7332]

There u go. Good job, that is helping someone out much more than belittling comments.