Group Pattern Question

Doom2

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Just thinking about this issue and looking at the Owner's Manual. This rifle seems to be a pillar bedded composite or synthetic stock. Reading the instructions it recommends tightening the rear action screw first which appears to be the furthest from the recoil lug, then the forward screw to 35 inch-lbs. This seems backwards to me. I am wondering if the stock is possibly compressing and/or holding some stress from the previous firings. I would look ar the recoil lug area also and make sure everything looks good.

I had a friend with a 204 (Howa or Vanguard I don't remember) that complained about the same issue. He never resolved it. Sold the rifle.
 

nksmfamjp

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I’m going to tell you a similar thing to all others….

Tighten your action screws to correct torque. Tighten bases and rings to spec.

Shoot 5 groups of 5 on a single sheet of paper with same exact aim point/target pattern. I shoot off my benchrest, but if your prone position gives zero reticle movement, use it. Shoot 1 round per minute, wait 5min between groups. Either hold wind or don’t hold wind on each shot, but be clear which you are doing. I generally don’t hold wind as it is a variable.

Look at the groups. does each have a flyer? Is the flyer the same each time? Does the composite group look like a single cluster.

If I had to guess you will find bedding is no good. If stock is injection molded, you may have to replace it to bed it.
 

OrionsStar

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dashender7; I would like to say two things..
1 - Thank you for being a Human Being. Very refreshing!
2 - I admire your quote from George Orwell. Well said and fitting in todays political age. Your right, we should all start to paying attention...
Thanks!
 

dashender7

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Oct 22, 2021
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NE
Is the stock touching barrel
Yes and I'm very certain it is by design on these Weatherby Vanguards. I think I confirmed this in an earlier post and also noted that this is the first rifle I've ever owned that was not designed as a free-floated barrel.

I haven’t had a problem with flyers with vanguards. Your group without the flyer will be where you end up after you figure out the problem
This is sure what I'm hoping for and this would be amazing for me!
 

dashender7

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Oct 22, 2021
Messages
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NE
I’m going to tell you a similar thing to all others….

Tighten your action screws to correct torque. Tighten bases and rings to spec.

Shoot 5 groups of 5 on a single sheet of paper with same exact aim point/target pattern. I shoot off my benchrest, but if your prone position gives zero reticle movement, use it. Shoot 1 round per minute, wait 5min between groups. Either hold wind or don’t hold wind on each shot, but be clear which you are doing. I generally don’t hold wind as it is a variable.

Look at the groups. does each have a flyer? Is the flyer the same each time? Does the composite group look like a single cluster.

If I had to guess you will find bedding is no good. If stock is injection molded, you may have to replace it to bed it.
Thank you for the confirmation and for adding your vote so to speak. I hope to have time later today to also respond also to QuietTexan who posted an amazing write up above that I'm still processing and digesting and which provided some similar guidance about group overlay and waiting between shots and groups.

Just thinking about this issue and looking at the Owner's Manual. This rifle seems to be a pillar bedded composite or synthetic stock. Reading the instructions it recommends tightening the rear action screw first which appears to be the furthest from the recoil lug, then the forward screw to 35 inch-lbs. This seems backwards to me. I am wondering if the stock is possibly compressing and/or holding some stress from the previous firings. I would look ar the recoil lug area also and make sure everything looks good.

I had a friend with a 204 (Howa or Vanguard I don't remember) that complained about the same issue. He never resolved it. Sold the rifle.
Okay I'm going to respond here and also give an update.

So far here's what I've done: I went out and bought a nice torque screwdriver yesterday so I can get correct inch lbs on everything. Admittedly I did not own one before. I then took the stock off, inspected it, and very carefully re-mounted it per the manual instructions setting the rear and then forward action screws to exactly the 35 inch-lbs factory spec.

I have my scope (SWFA HD 3-9x FFP) mounted in Vortex Pro aluminum rings on a Warne aluminum Mountain Tech base. I un-mounted my scope and re-mounted everything to spec (Vortex provides specs for the rings and ring bases).

I then went to the range to re-zero and test some groups. I fired one at 100yds to re-zero and made the 5 mils or so of adjustment because of re-mounting the scope based on that shot.

Unfortunately as I prepared to shoot groups the wind picked up brutally (I'm in the open in Nebraska). I decided it would be too much of a variable for what I was trying to do yesterday so I called it a day with this Weatherby, got in a little work with a different rifle, and headed home hoping to be able to head back to shoot today after church.

I hope to be able to report back soon. Thank you again to everyone who has jumped in to help me troubleshoot and brainstorm this!
 

dashender7

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Oct 22, 2021
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dashender7; I would like to say two things..
1 - Thank you for being a Human Being. Very refreshing!
2 - I admire your quote from George Orwell. Well said and fitting in todays political age. Your right, we should all start to paying attention...
Thanks!
I appreciate you on both counts thank you for the encouragement on these lines friend!
 

QuietTexan

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Nov 16, 2020
Messages
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Location
Fort Worth, Texas
I fired one at 100yds to re-zero and made the 5 mils or so of adjustment because of re-mounting the scope based on that shot.
5 mils or 0.5 mils, and in the vertical or horizontal? Seems like a lot of adjustment unless something major changed: base backwards, rings binding the erector in the scope, etc. Hopefully that means whatever it was you found it in the process.

Hope the reinstall gets it done for you - sometimes the peace of mind knowing you checked every is very worth it đź‘Ť
 

DJ Fergus

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Dec 25, 2015
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3,019
I'm seeing a pattern repeating shooting groups.

6.5 CM Weatherby Vanguard "Meat Eater" with 24" spiral fluted light barrel. No modifications. About 140 rounds on the rifle now. 143 ELD-X with Lapua brass CCI 400 small rifle primers RL-26 2,735 avg. with about a 12 ES. Maybe the very beginnings of light pressure near top of published powder around 46.0

I can back off powder and get about .8" groups consistently, but I'm wanting to chase these almost tiny groups.

Pictured below is at 100yds. Have seen similar results at 200yds with the expected group size comparably.

4 or 5 shot groups with small cluster and one bad flyer up to 1.5" to 2"" out of the group that are otherwise all touching. Pictured below is the worst one. Unless I'm crazy, I feel like the wild one is shot 3 after the first 2 starting with a cold or cooled down barrel. I also might be waiting longer after that flyer for the barrel to cool before shot 4 thinking the barrel is warming up too much. Haven' been able to confirm again yet.

Hoping for ideas and insight to consider as I troubleshoot load development. Dumb to think I'm on to something good with this load given the bad one that happens in every group? Barrel heating up or wrong powder charge? Where might I go from here? Thanks in advance!

pUcuTma.jpg
I've got a situation like yours going on with a 6.5 creed. I've been hand loading for many years now and it's got me stumped. I've tried different bullets powders & seating depths. I've finally changed scopes but I haven't had time to shoot it. I believe it's going to turn out to be either a scope or barrel issue.
 

Hard rock

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Dec 20, 2020
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Tomball Texas 77377
I've got a situation like yours going on with a 6.5 creed. I've been hand loading for many years now and it's got me stumped. I've tried different bullets powders & seating depths. I've finally changed scopes but I haven't had time to shoot it. I believe it's going to turn out to be either a scope or barrel issue.
I’m going too post this one more time the first thing I would do is check the float on the barrel you said you did and it didn’t that more than likely will change your grouping if you float it more than likely too the good if it starts grouping bad the next step would be bed the action mainly recoil lug area I doubt any precision long range shooters go into competition with a rifle that the barrel isn’t floated and action bedded and your talking heavy barreled rifles please keep us posted
 

Doom2

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Dec 24, 2018
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South of the Mason Dixon Line
I’m going too post this one more time the first thing I would do is check the float on the barrel you said you did and it didn’t that more than likely will change your grouping if you float it more than likely too the good if it starts grouping bad the next step would be bed the action mainly recoil lug area I doubt any precision long range shooters go into competition with a rifle that the barrel isn’t floated and action bedded and your talking heavy barreled rifles please keep us posted
Given a light barrel that’s not floated it’s highly likely this is not a quarter MOA rifle and chasing that goal my be the problem here. I assume this is a hunting rifle and if so, less than MOA is more than sufficient.

I would back off and take the .8 MOA.
 

dashender7

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Oct 22, 2021
Messages
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Location
NE
5 mils or 0.5 mils, and in the vertical or horizontal? Seems like a lot of adjustment unless something major changed: base backwards, rings binding the erector in the scope, etc. Hopefully that means whatever it was you found it in the process.

Hope the reinstall gets it done for you - sometimes the peace of mind knowing you checked every is very worth it đź‘Ť

Ahh thank you for pointing that out - my mistake there - it was not 5 mils it was .5 mils. 5 tenths of a mil, and it was vertical.

Wow yeah 5 full mils change on re-mounting the same scope and hardware would definitely have signaled a problem yeah!

Hoping to post a thorough update this evening.
 
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