Fired Brass Can't be Re-Sized

[JayCee49]

Differences are very slight!

 

[greenejc]

I've had a number of gas guns over the years. Best guess is you were blessed with a generously sized chamber. Greenejc hit the nail on the head. Nato chambers are not the same as a Wylde or match chamber. If we were talking about a bolt gun, this situation would be unacceptable, at least for me. Since we are dealing with a gas gun, which seems to shoot really well, I'd have a custom die made and call it a day. Having an accurate AR10 which will except just about any kind of 308 ammo you want to stuff in the mag? Bonus! Seriously, I've had overly tight chambers opened up in my AR's over the years. Made life way easier and they never lost a hint of accuracy.
You no doubt know this, but, just in case, don't expect long brass life from a gas gun. My M1A is not kind to it's brass. Max is 4 reloadings, and that's with mil spec brass. My AR's are better, but still nothing like a bolt gun. Best of luck with the new smoke pole!

I forgot to ask: will the casings that you resized take primers or are the primer pockets stretched? If the pockets aren't stretched, get a die opened out to fit the chamber and don't worry about it. Most mil-spec chambers are on the outside edge of SAAMI specs for reliability in feeding and ejection. Brass is always hard to size from them, but if the primer pocket isn't ruined, it can still be used. I have much the same problem with my HK 91. I have to size the brass twice before it will fit in my Remington 700. This isn't a problem with an M1A with a match chamber, but I've seen it happen with standard M1A's and with BM59 rifles, due to the slightly larger mil-spec chamber. As to the dimensions of the 7.62X51 and the .308 Winchester, they are EXACTLY the same. The difference is in brass thickness and maximum pressure. The .308 is actually loaded to about 4,000 cup higher MAP than the 7.62, which isn't really much. Lee or RCBS will make you a custom die to fit your chamber.

 

[woolecox]

So what is the actual measurement of your fired brass at the web just above the extractor groove and at the neck shoulder junction? This measurement is best taken with a micrometer but a caliper will suffice.

I'm curious too. Got home late from work. I will get some mic'ed up tomorrow and post.

 

[cohunt]

Differences are very slight!

View attachment 205775View attachment 205776

Those are cartridge specs, not chamber specs.,

 

[woolecox]

So, after an hour and 10 minutes on hold this morning I gave up. I waited it out this afternoon (1:25) and finally got in touch with Customer Support at Larue Tactical. Here is a picture of my OBR 7.62 with 20" barrel. I changed the stock to the Magpul PRS and changed the A2 flash hider to a AAC MK13 to accommodate my AAC MK13-SD suppressor. The scope is a Nightforce ATACR 4-16x42 F1 with Mil-C reticule. Pretty much my dream rifle.

I explained my problem with the blown out brass and how the chamber was so far out of spec that I could not resize the brass for reloading. The XTRAXN chamber also leaves flute marks on the brass that you can see and feel. I asked if the chamber was intentionally this loose or if I had a manufacturing defect?

"Yes, the chamber could very well be that loose for functioning enhancement. We don't recommend reloaded ammo for these rifles. We have heard owners say the same thing you are about difficulty resizing the cases".

I described the ammo that I shot through it and asked if that voided the warranty. I knew it did not after scouring their website and reading the owners manual that came with the rifle. The manual says; We recommend high quality match grade ammo. Do not use steel cased ammo. No mention of reloads. No mention of special 7.62 ammo verses 308 Win.

"No hand loads do not void the warranty. We just don't recommend it".

I asked what ammo he recommended?

"Specifically, we recommend Federal Premium Gold Medal Match with 168 SMK and 175 SMK's. We have also gotten Federal American Eagle ammo to function very well in the rife".

Obviously, none of this ammo is specifically built for the 7.62 NATO Service Rifle. This is premium ammo built for the 308 Winchester. I also explained to him that the Fed GMM was the ONLY ammo that would not function in the rifle.

"Well that is probably because the rifle is new and just has not broken in yet. You should probably run it wetter and give it a few more rounds".

I call BS on this. At this point, I had about 150 rounds through the rifle and I run them wet anyway. The BGC was still wet when I cleaned it that night. I talked more about SAAMI spec and Mil Spec parts, expectations, etc.

"Well, there really is no Mil Spec for the AR10 platform. Many of our parts differ from the parts on other manufacturers' guns. As for SAAMI, chambers are often made that are outside SAAMI specs for reliability and functionality".

I explained about being able to reload 7.62 brass fired from machine guns (I have 2000 cases that are sized, trimmed, primed, and ready to go).

No explanation.

I am having another issue with the rifle I have not discussed here and It has to do with the Muzzle Brake/Adapter. When ordering the rifle, I had a choice of an A2 flash hider or the Larue Tranquillo Brake/Adapter. Well, I don't have a Traquillo Suppressor and don't plan on getting one so, I got the A2. I do however, have two other 30 cal cans that are excellent. The one I planned on using on this rifle is the AAC MK13-SD. I have used this suppressor with the MK13 muzzle device on two my bolt rifles. It is a staple with our military and it changes point of impact and group size very little.

When installing the MK13 muzzle device on the OBR, it bottomed out with a gap of about 3/8" between the shoulder of the barrel and the threads. This would take about 5 normal 7.62 shim packs to torque the device to top dead center and fill the gap. I did find a company that made thicker shims and ended up using two of those. This could be the reason I got such horrible groups with the rifle suppressed. I guess I am lucky I did't get a baffle strike. When I asked the rep about this issue:

"The Larue Tranquillo Adapter is proprietary for the rifle. It would have seated properly against the barrel shoulder".

So, AAC, KAC, Surefire, Q and other well know maker's muzzle devices will not fit this rifle?

"Correct. That would be like buying a Ford truck and putting a Chevy engine in it".

Are you kidding me? At this point, I said "Thanks for your time. Have a nice day". Had I known about the extremely loose "XTRAXN" chamber that ruins brass or, the muzzle device issue, I would not have bought the rifle. I feel like these are things that should have been disclosed.

So, now what do I do???

 

[Bob Wright]

Sounds like the main issue is contained with this barrel as set up.
-You could sell the weapon.
-You could throw more money at a barrel spec'd to your desire.
-The manufacturer may accomodate to your wishes at a moderate cost.
You certainly show solid knowledge in reloading and its a shame you are here. Tough decision.
Weigh everything on cost to meet your goal. Then decide if it's worth it.

 

[Dean2]

Sounds like the main issue is contained with this barrel as set up.
-You could sell the weapon.
-You could throw more money at a barrel spec'd to your desire.
-The manufacturer may accomodate to your wishes at a moderate cost.
You certainly show solid knowledge in reloading and its a shame you are here. Tough decision.
Weigh everything on cost to meet your goal. Then decide if it's worth it.

Tell them you want your money back. Go buy a properly built rifle. A chamber that is a full .01 over Saami spec is not just a little loose for functionality reasons. .002 over Saami min might be reasonable, what you got is just bad build quality. The fact they pretty much told u to pound sand on the chamber and the **** poor barrel threading tells me this is not a gun .most non-battle users will be happy with. At the big dollars they charge gor these guns they should be spectacular. The fact they wont run recommend factory ammo is really poor performance.

 

[Steve gavette]

There is a world of difference between reloading not being recommended and being impossible. Reloading your cartridges, if you did what is required to reload them, would be at best dangerous. That by itself should be enough to make them either replace the gun or return your money.

 

[Bob Wright]

And if you go in guns blazing like these two above, you'll throw away your first opportunity to get a satisfactory outcome. Lay out your case. Ask them for a resolution. If they don't play nice, then you move it up to the next notch. If they are accredited by multiple organizations, like BBB, NSSF, etc, you can push there.
Don't fold your cards and start shooting up the works. That's a loser move.

 

[Dean2]

And if you go in guns blazing like these two above, you'll throw away your first opportunity to get a satisfactory outcome. Lay out your case. Ask them for a resolution. If they don't play nice, then you move it up to the next notch. If they are accredited by multiple organizations, like BBB, NSSF, etc, you can push there.
Don't fold your cards and start shooting up the works. That's a loser move.

The maker told him the gun is delivered to their acceptable specs. Asking for a refund is NOT all guns blazing. He has already asked them for a resolution, at least the way I read his post, and they told him the gun he got is what the designed it to be. It was however no where close to what he expected to receive nor did the manufacturer disclose they where clambering rifles way looser than Saami spec. If they will refund his money and take the gun back everyone is satisfied. Negotiating for properly chambered barrels with proper threading is going to be a long drawn out affair. That is not what you pay big bucks for a high end gun to get.

 

[Bob Wright]

And, if he paid cash and no way to dispute the charges on a card, what now? This company can pass off something that looks good but doesn't work well. Then that's the path you stay on. Work the issues. Demanding goes no where.
I'm in it right now with one of the most recognizable gun parts suppliers in the business. You don't demand anything from them. You work the process. They have better lawyers than I can supply.

 

[Dean2]

And, if he paid cash and no way to dispute the charges on a card, what now? This company can pass off something that looks good but doesn't work well. Then that's the path you stay on. Work the issues. Demanding goes no where.
I'm in it right now with one of the most recognizable gun parts suppliers in the business. You don't demand anything from them. You work the process. They have better lawyers than I can supply.

ASK, not demand. If u ever let it get to lawyers u are way past screwed. No gun is expensive enough to warrant paying a lawyer to deal with a problem. You would be far better off to just suck up the cost of putting a properly chambered and threaded new barrel on. I never said be belligerent but you do have to ask for what u want. Making the manufacturer have to figure out what will make u happy is not a winning proposition. If they turn down the refund request, now it is time to work the process but unless u ask u won't have any chance of getting the best outcome.

 

[Starlite]

I just got a factory new AR10 chambered in 7.62 NATO (308Win). My first 7.62 auto loader. I am a reloader. I have been doing it for 30 years now. I have been an active Bench Rest, PRS, and IDPA competitor and, reload for all those disciplines. I also reload all my hunting ammo. So, I am pretty sure I know what I am doing and am confident my equipment is up to and exceeds par.

Using a box of new Lapua 308 Win brass I had on hand, I loaded up several "ladders" that consisted of 168SMK, 175SMK, 175VLD-H, and 178ELD-X. All respectable bullets. All were loaded using various weights of Varget power, and GM210M primers. All top shelf components. None of the loads were anywhere near max. In most, at least two full grains short. No over pressure signs.

I also shot a couple of factory loads, Hornady Black 168AMAX, and Federal Gold Medal Match. All reloads and factory ammo functioned flawlessly except the factory Fed GMM. It was not powerful enough to strip the next round from the magazine and closed on an empty chamber. "CLICK". The GMM did function flawlessly with the gun suppressed but the groups were terrible. All other groups were near or under 1 MOA for 5 shots. The best was the 178ELD-X that grouped .62" and clocked 2500 fps. It's a 20" barrel.

To the point: All cases except for the Hornady case will not go through my resizing dies. Even with the Hornady I really had to stand on the lever to get them sized. When I measured the fired cases, all dimensions were around a full .01" larger than factory new. A full hundredth. No way they are going through a die. Yes, I used multiple dies; Redding FL, Redding Type S, Redding Shoulder Bump, Forster FL, and Forster Bushing Bump. Not happening.

So the question: Can this be anything other than an extremely loose chamber?

I am going to contact the factory as soon as possible but, that may be impossible with most companies being flat on their butt "due to COVID".

Here is one of the better groups. The factory Hornady AMAX did just as well.
View attachment 205436

I started reading this thread but got pulled away so I'm not up to speed. However, I did hear someone stated it's likely because it's a gas gun!! Maybe. Hopefully I'm not rehashing this. A friend who is also retired military asked if I'd reload som 308 (mostly good quality federal brass but there was a lot of NATO range brass Too. He dropped off the RCBS dies too. I prepared the Brass as per my regular method and away I went; attempting to FL Resize. First couple were very difficult but no stuck cases. 3rd was even more difficult so I stopped there. Long story short. I like you tried 3 different dies. I wasn't till I used the Hornady American series and a little more spray lube that I could get all this different case head Brass (7.62 included) to size smoothly.
just my experience.

 

[cohunt]

Too bad- I would have hoped they would have at least asked to see it,
before you think about replacing the barrel- you should check the barrel nut, bolt head, and barrel extension specs--- if those are proprietary (especially the bolt head) then barrel replacement may be almoat impossible without some expensive custom machining.

I find that many companies utilize something proprietary in their "ar10" rifles and unfortunately, LaRue dies make it clear that their chamber is a proprietary design.

You might be better off just selling it and get on with your life. Less hair pulling is often a good thing.