Fired Brass Can't be Re-Sized

[Bob Wright]

So tell me which Militaries in the world are using "Match Grade Factory Ammo" in combat situations. Theses guys are trying to blow and suck at the same time.

The military, complying with NATO agreements, FMJ.
Since its sold on on the civilian market, you cannot shoot anything but off the shelf match ammo of Larue's choosing. It's cleary worded and you're locked in if you don't want to run into problems with warranty work.
This rifle is not a run of the mill or a high quality AR. It is miltary design sold on the consumer market and not for reloading any brass fired from it. The patent took me about 1.5 hours to read and re-read certain aspects. I invite you to do the same.
The owner clearly is having the problem as described with reloads.
I wouldn't want to reload the spent brass out of this rifle. It would have to be new brass or something other than LaRue spent brass that will resize.
My S&W M&P15 is just an average AR, but will shoot all of the ammo out there including my reloads.
Not this "Larue". It sucks for sure.

 

[woolecox]

From the instruction manual:
"WARNING: ONLY USE QUALITY MATCHGRADE FACTORY AMMUNITION. FAILURE TO USE THE CORRECT TYPE OF AMMUNITION MAY CAUSE OPERATION FAILURES, DAMAGE, INJURY, OR PROPERTY DAMAGE. NO STEEL CASED AMMO!"
Along with that the patent describes the chamber design which has helical/spiral grooves up to .001 depth per side that is designed to reduce the drag out forces during extraction, among other things. If you think of it as a shallow rifling, the brass is going to be embossed. The dies available will not be or will have a difficult time overcoming the embossed size of the brass.
Since it was "military" in its intended design, no one is picking up spent brass on the field. It's my estimation, it is scrap brass and incapable/near impossible of being resized for reloads.
And that is probably their angle. New manufactured factory match ammo only.
Edited add owners photo. This brass is embossed.

You are correct but I did not have that instruction manual prior to receiving the rifle. Nor, did I look up the XTRAXN Chamber patent. Nor, did I know that the barrel muzzle threads would prevent me from using other manufacturer's suppressors and muzzle devices such as KAC, AAC, Surefire, and Q which, I already own.

As I have said earlier in the thread, I do have a Larue OBR 5.56 that I have been using for over 10 years. There were no restrictions on hand loads, fired brass is easily reloadable, and my Surefire muzzle device fits and works perfectly. It is a .5 MOA shooter with or without the suppressor. I have been a huge Larue supporter in the past.

Had I known I would be having these issues with this OBR 7.62, I simply would have passed and stepped up to a KAC.

 

[Bob Wright]

You are correct but I did not have that instruction manual prior to receiving the rifle. Nor, did I look up the XTRAXN Chamber patent. Nor, did I know that the barrel muzzle threads would prevent me from using other manufacturer's suppressors and muzzle devices such as KAC, AAC, Surefire, and Q which, I already own.

As I have said earlier in the thread, I do have a Larue OBR 5.56 that I have been using for over 10 years. There were no restrictions on hand loads, fired brass is easily reloadable, and my Surefire muzzle device fits and works perfectly. It is a .5 MOA shooter with or without the suppressor. I have been a huge Larue supporter in the past.

Had I known I would be having these issues with this OBR 7.62, I simply would have passed and stepped up to a KAC.

I agree. You did not have the information before purchase.
Larue needs to pay off that patent investment somehow, and its in the civilian market now.
The only thing SAAMI about this chamber is what kind of SAAMI ammo is required.
I feel bad for you, no doubt.

 

[cohunt]

You are correct but I did not have that instruction manual prior to receiving the rifle. Nor, did I look up the XTRAXN Chamber patent. Nor, did I know that the barrel muzzle threads would prevent me from using other manufacturer's suppressors and muzzle devices such as KAC, AAC, Surefire, and Q which, I already own.

As I have said earlier in the thread, I do have a Larue OBR 5.56 that I have been using for over 10 years. There were no restrictions on hand loads, fired brass is easily reloadable, and my Surefire muzzle device fits and works perfectly. It is a .5 MOA shooter with or without the suppressor. I have been a huge Larue supporter in the past.

Had I known I would be having these issues with this OBR 7.62, I simply would have passed and stepped up to a KAC.

I agree, but what happened was you unfortunately didnt ask the right questions.
LaRue plainly stated that it was a proprietary xtraxn chamber, and no where on their website in the description of this rifle does it even say what cartridge it fires, let alone anything about reloading.
What happened was that you assumed it would fire 308w and 7.62x51 ammo, you assumed that brass would be reloadable, you assumed that other peoples muzzle devices would mount up without issues.
I dont defend LaRue here as I feel they should have offered a more accurate description, but I think part lies on you for assuming too much and not asking any questions.
I have contacted numerous rifle manufactures in tbe past with specific questions about chambers, barrel specs, muzzle threads etc -- and i have always gotten specific answeres-- some have made me change my mind about my purchase too.

Any response back from LaRue about the functioning issues?

 

[Steve gavette]

What happened was that you assumed it would fire 308w and 7.62x51 ammo, you assumed that brass would be reloadable, you assumed that other peoples muzzle devices would mount up without issues.

If I was buying an AR10, those are 3 questions I would not ask.

 

[Bob Wright]

My opinion, deceptive advertising can be omission of known aspects that prohibit commonly used ammo and accepted best practice on reloads. We all learned from the OP experience.

 

[cohunt]

If I was buying an AR10, those are 3 questions I would not ask.

It's not an ar10, nor an sr-25, nor an lr308, nor a gen 2---every large frame AR has some sort of "proprietary" parts to them-- been there, done that - it takes quite a bit of research to figure out what is compatable in the large frame market

 

[ntsqd]

I think those assumptions that the OP made are reasonable and most would make the same assumptions based on the info available at the time. Info omitted, whether deliberate or not, by mfg. resulted in the purchase of a product that does not meet the buyer's expectation. The OP's local, or LaRue's local DA's Consumer Fraud section may have an interest in this depending on how it plays out.

 

[woolecox]

I agree, but what happened was you unfortunately didnt ask the right questions.
LaRue plainly stated that it was a proprietary xtraxn chamber, and no where on their website in the description of this rifle does it even say what cartridge it fires, let alone anything about reloading.
What happened was that you assumed it would fire 308w and 7.62x51 ammo, you assumed that brass would be reloadable, you assumed that other peoples muzzle devices would mount up without issues.
I dont defend LaRue here as I feel they should have offered a more accurate description, but I think part lies on you for assuming too much and not asking any questions.
I have contacted numerous rifle manufactures in tbe past with specific questions about chambers, barrel specs, muzzle threads etc -- and i have always gotten specific answeres-- some have made me change my mind about my purchase too.

Any response back from LaRue about the functioning issues?

There is no one to ask. Larue does not answer their sales line and they don't return voicemails or emails. I would have never thought to ask those question anyway. I guess my bad for buying online.

Look back at my post on my conversation with tech support after a 2.5 hour wait on hold.

Also look at post #3. I predicted their response.

It is not the end of the world. I will live with it either way.

 

[sw282]

Lee Undersized Carbide Sizer Die 38 Super

Lee U Carbide Undersized Sizing Dies are great for reloaders looking for ultimate feeding reliability in their handgun. These dies undersize brass...

www.midwayusa.com

You might try one of these Lee ''Undersizers'' in 45acp. .003'' undersize should help. Remove the decapper rod too. No messy lube needed either. The sizer is CARBIDE

 

[CMH]

Lee Undersized Carbide Sizer Die 38 Super

Lee U Carbide Undersized Sizing Dies are great for reloaders looking for ultimate feeding reliability in their handgun. These dies undersize brass...

www.midwayusa.com

You might try one of these Lee ''Undersizers'' in 45acp. .003'' undersize should help. Remove the decapper rod too. No messy lube needed either. The sizer is CARBIDE

How would undersizing help this situation?

 

[10spottedhorses]

I just got a factory new AR10 chambered in 7.62 NATO (308Win). My first 7.62 auto loader. I am a reloader. I have been doing it for 30 years now. I have been an active Bench Rest, PRS, and IDPA competitor and, reload for all those disciplines. I also reload all my hunting ammo. So, I am pretty sure I know what I am doing and am confident my equipment is up to and exceeds par.

Using a box of new Lapua 308 Win brass I had on hand, I loaded up several "ladders" that consisted of 168SMK, 175SMK, 175VLD-H, and 178ELD-X. All respectable bullets. All were loaded using various weights of Varget power, and GM210M primers. All top shelf components. None of the loads were anywhere near max. In most, at least two full grains short. No over pressure signs.

I also shot a couple of factory loads, Hornady Black 168AMAX, and Federal Gold Medal Match. All reloads and factory ammo functioned flawlessly except the factory Fed GMM. It was not powerful enough to strip the next round from the magazine and closed on an empty chamber. "CLICK". The GMM did function flawlessly with the gun suppressed but the groups were terrible. All other groups were near or under 1 MOA for 5 shots. The best was the 178ELD-X that grouped .62" and clocked 2500 fps. It's a 20" barrel.

To the point: All cases except for the Hornady case will not go through my resizing dies. Even with the Hornady I really had to stand on the lever to get them sized. When I measured the fired cases, all dimensions were around a full .01" larger than factory new. A full hundredth. No way they are going through a die. Yes, I used multiple dies; Redding FL, Redding Type S, Redding Shoulder Bump, Forster FL, and Forster Bushing Bump. Not happening.

So the question: Can this be anything other than an extremely loose chamber?

I am going to contact the factory as soon as possible but, that may be impossible with most companies being flat on their butt "due to COVID".

Here is one of the better groups. The factory Hornady AMAX did just as well.
View attachment 205436

Can't think of a thing other than a sloopy chamber. Likewise, been reloading for 39 years and had one Remington 700 BDL marked .270 Winchester when in reality it was a .270 Weatherby chamber. THAT was an uncomfortable first and last shot! Remington replaced the gun and it was perfectly capable of 0.63" groups of 5.

 

[10spottedhorses]

The issue is that you're using loads that are too hot for a gas gun.

The cartridges aren't being stripped off of the mag because the bolt carrier is moving faster than the mag spring can push the ammo up in to position.

I don't know what load data you are using but your 178 grain ELD-X is about 2.5 grains higher than Hornady recommends for a gas gun.

Really good to know and thanks for explaining that because I'm an old single-shot man and know nothing about gas guns. Learn something new everyday!

 

[woolecox]

The issue is that you're using loads that are too hot for a gas gun.

The cartridges aren't being stripped off of the mag because the bolt carrier is moving faster than the mag spring can push the ammo up in to position.

I don't know what load data you are using but your 178 grain ELD-X is about 2.5 grains higher than Hornady recommends for a gas gun.

I know this is part of the issue. I was using loads 2-3 full grains lighter than listed in the NORMAL 308 manuals and figured this would be a good starting point. Maybe not. Some loads in the ladder obviously hotter than others. Still does not explain why the factory ammo that Larue recommends (Federal GM 168 & 175 SMK) will not go through a sizing die. I love Federal Premium Brass. Wish you could still buy it.

The only source of loading information for "gas guns" I have found so far is Hodgdon and Hornady. Hodgdon does not specify which gas gun. Hornady says "M1A/M14". So are we to assume these are appropriate and limiting loads for modern day AR10 platforms as well?

To confuse the issue even more, Western Powders (big fan of Ram Shot TAC) list loads for 223 Rem and 5.56 NATO. The 5.56 NATO loads are significantly hotter. No issues whatsoever using the NATO data in my Larue OBR 5.56 rifle.

I am also going to try some H4895 (faster than Varget) in an attempt to keep the combustion cycle shorter. We will see.

But yes, I was able to get some of the lighter loads through a Forster Bushing Bump die. The problem with that die is that it does not have an expander button. So if the case mouth is dented or out of round, I have to run it again through a Redding Type S with expander ball.

Who knows? Maybe the fired brass that I can resize might improve accuracy which, is already excellent. I certainly have learned a lot about the AR10 rifle from this thread. I really appreciate everyone's time and input!