considering a High end AR 308 hunting platform

[backyardsniper]

I have not dealt much in the super high end AR realm, so here is the deal. I'm about to get forced to go to engineer school at the railroad where I work, it will ultimately suck but result in a reasonable pay raise. I have always been a bolt gun man, however I have recently had the itch to built or buy a very high end AR platform in either 260, 6.5 creedmore, or 308. I'm about 75% it will be a 308 with 25% wiggle room on the other two simply because I shoot 308, 300 win mag bolt guns and I have all the reloading set up , buy my bullets in bulk, blahh, blahh, you know the story. I'm not new to high end custom rifles or AR platforms. I have two scout supply built rifles on stiller actions that Russel built for me and I have had numerous AR rifles that never really shot to suit me and I now have a rock river predator pursuit upper on a rock river operator lower which I have had for a while and I really like. It is my go to coyote hunting rifle and I have killed several deer with it as well, which is what prompted me to really start looking at it as possibly the perfect hunting platform. That is what this rifle will be, a work gun, hunting rifle, gonna get used beat up packed around, taken on mule deer and possiblt elk hunts, bear hunts, numerous whitetail hunts. I have a nightforce F1 and that is most likely the scope it will wear. I'm wanting to build my future hunting companion for almost all of the hunts I plan to do in the future so accuracy is of the utmost concern. Ruggedness and reliability also are very important factors. I have a scout supply 300 win and a scout supply 338 lapua ackley imp, so all of my specialty hunting needs are covered, but you can do 90% of the hunting you are gonna do in the US with a 308 or 260.
So here is the question. What is the difference if any performance wise between , the GAP 10, JP rifles, POF, and whatever other super high end companies that are producing these rifles? I know GAP comes with a wait if you order it but I have seen several posted on here that would be very close to what I would consider my perfect set up. Would I be better off building my own, or just buying a rock river in 308? I want reasonably light, no huge *** bull barrels, collapseable stock, possibly a PRS but probably colapseable just for weight and manuverability, 18 to 20 in. barrel, smooth slim handguards to make it easy to get in and out of my pack, eberlestock gsll. I need a great trigger, probably gonna go with a geiselle, on that one, a two stage, I really like those. SO there it is , what would yo recommend, build, buy, if you were in my shoes? I plan to post this same thread on snipershide just to be able to compare the answers and see what the difference of opinion on equipment is between here and there.

 

[Jluck]

I debated this same thing for months. I could not find a good answer for a 308 platform production rifles for a balance of weight and enough barrel to shoot the way I'd want. The best option I saw was the new DPMS and if you consider Rock River a acceptable brand there is no reason to not look at the DPMS or even the Remington R25.

I ultimately went with the 223 platform rifle in a 6.5 Grendel, I felt this was a great compromise and is a neat little round. With that said I now have it for sale to finance my new "do it all" bolt rifle in 7mm-08.

If I were to do it again and had to have a 308 AR I'd build one with a quality (Mega maybe) matched lower/upper set and a Proof Research barrel and lots of lightweight tidbits, Mine would be in 7mm-08 for all the reloading reasons you mentioned earlier.

 

[backyardsniper]

I'll add to yhe question for the same price range as the high end ar platform s do they make a m1a that will shoot with the ar platform

 

[Jluck]

These are sweet!
Springfield M1A OD Stock Loaded PKG .308 10+1 NIB : Semi Auto Rifles at GunBroker.com

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict (UGA)]

I'll be straight and say though I had the same proposition as you suggested... It was actually for a 223 many years ago. I was steered towards the DPMS Sweet 16 which I've been amazed by. I was just out this last week checking some reloads vs American Eagle cheap 50gr varmint tipped ammo. My reloads were grouping about .56" @ 100 but the American eagle grouped crazy good... Nothing bigger than .40". Below is an image of the best group.



Now ... You are probably thinking, "what's this got to do with my request for a 308?" Well... This last spring I started thinking about getting a high end AR10, but after looking around... I decided to go with another DPMS... a LR-308B. I was a little hesitant about it not having the forward assist, but then I got to thinking about how many thousands of rounds I've sent down my Sweet 16 and not once have I ever had to use it... So I took a chance on the LR-308B. I'm absolutely, 100% pleased with the results. I wish I had saved some targets to post, but that rifle shoots everything I've fed it at less than 1 moa, with most being less than 1/2 moa. My brother and I took 10 boxes of factory ammo and there wasn't anything it didn't shoot well. We took the last box of ammo and set up 20 clay pigeons out at 275 yards and broke 19 out of 20. we weren't even trying hard and We weren't even waiting for the barrel to cool..(This was from a bench with front rest and rear bag). The one thing I did do to it was to upgrade the trigger to a 3lb timney. I knew from my sweet 16 that the factory trigger stinks... So when I ordered my rifle... I also ordered a timney so that I could toss it in the day it arrived. It makes the rifle a dream to shoot and improves accuracy dramatically. The factory trigger had me throwing shots in the sweet 16... But you can see above what they can do with a decent trigger.

Anyhow... I know DPMS isn't considered a tier 1 AR platform, but I've been stunned by what you get for the money. All, I have to say is wow... Go DPMS!!!

 

[tokatee]

I and my friends have or have had six or more rock river 308s,ALL have been tack drivers ,from the 16" to the heavy 26", My current one is the A2,great trigger,Rock Rivers are known to come with very usable triggers,also have a couple 223 rock rivers,they are great, that being said,I am very interested in the newer DPMS Generation 2,308 or 260, This platform is supposed to be much lighter in weight,7.75#with 20" free float barrel,if it was to be used for elk and bear I would take the 308 ,way more bullets to choose from,I have packed enough elk on horses to know what the 308 does,thinking I might have to have an extra barrel in 260 to play with,hope I helped a little.

 

[scf]

I haven't tried their AR10 platform but I have a very accurate AR15 in 204 Ruger built by Precision Firearms (precisionfirearms.com). Top quality work and components, plus some flexibility in their builds.

 

[lilharcher]

I literally did countless hours of research and spoke to a large number of knowledgeable gas-gun marksman (primarily on snipershide) to basically build my interpretation of a top 5% gas gun for my intended use (pictured). My primary application is long range target precision, with a close second application of long range hunting. To meet your requests, I would have used the exact same componants, but likely shortened the barrel from 22 inches to 18 inches, and added the ACE folding stock mechanism (not legal in CA, so couldn't add it).

Here is my build:
1) Mega Maten MKM matched upper, lower, and extended length hand-guard
2) JP Enterprises 22" medium profile match barrel w/ Bennie Coley muzzle break
3) ACE skeletonized stock w/ extended butt pad (wish I could have added the folding stock mechanism, but not legal in CA)
4) Geiselle 3-gun Trigger (fits my style the best, but plenty to chose from)
5) JP Enterprises buffer and light weight BCG
6) JP E Thermal dissipator

I have two uppers for this rifle, both built exactly the same way, but one is a .308 and other is a 6.5 creedmoor.

Shoots lights out, definitely under .5 MOA, and meets most of the other requirements on your list (again, I would probably shorten the barrel for your intended application and add stock folding mechanism). I too considered a GAP 10, but thought I could build a similar product without the long wait, with a better cosmetic look (IMO).

Another gas gun you may want to research:
1) 270 AR - wildcat made by www.ar15performance.com; I have one and think it is the best caliber available for hunting in the AR15 (not AR10) format.......shoots a 130 grain .277 bullet at 2750 ft/sec and a 140 gr. bullet in the high 2600's. I built mine on a side charged upper made by quality arms, on top of a mega billet lower, and added a geiselle trigger and Khales scope. Weight is less than 7lbs, a little over 8 lbs with scope. Casing is a based on 6.5 Creedmoor (but you can use .308 and others) by pushing back the shoulder, necking the brass up, and trimming......there are custom dies available.

2) Nexgen .308 - ar15performance is currently building a redesigned 308 and 260 gas gun that will weight approx. 8 lbs, and essentially use mostly AR15 components to reduce weight. These will be ready in January and this new format may revolutionize and change perception of a light weight hunting gas gun.

 

[The Oregonian]

If it were me I'd get in touch with Wes Grant at MSTN and have him build an upper. Tell him what you want and he will build an amazingly accurate, bulletproof platform. There is none better as far as I am concerned.

He isn't the cheapest but compares favorably with factory Noveske or KAC uppers while offering quality that is second to none.

I have no bis relationship with him but he is a joy to talk to and learn from.

MSTN

 

[Packrat 6]

backyardsniper,
You mentioned the M1A a few threads back so will give you my opinion. I have 2 M1A Springfields. One is a National Match, built by Springfield, with all the NM bells and whistles which only gets used for wandering into the texas brush for wounded hogs. I presently don't have a scope on it since I want to move fast since most of the shooting is under 30' and often enough am firing before it ever reaches my shoulder. There is a certain quality that quantity provides and with 168 Gr slugs and a 20 round magazine, there is about all the quantity you will ever need for almost anything short of a firefight. The only complaint that I have with this rifle is that I need to buy a composite stock since it has the optional heavy wood stock and weighs about 11.5 Lbs. If I put the Springfield (I think it's a 4-16x) scope on it it can hit anything I can see with enough knock down to take down anything I hit.

The 2nd M1A is a Springfield built Super Match, stainless Kreiger barrel, special iron sights, supermatch trigger, 6-24x54 Mil-dot, rangefinder Springfield scope and mounts and accurized by Springfield which was custom ordered for competition shooting, which I haven't been doing for the last several years because of my eyes. Again, it has all the bells and whistles that Springfield provides, and any failing with the rifle isn't the rifles, it is mine. We used to joke about the old saying of packing 1/2 ounce of Salt in the cartridge to keep the meat from spoiling before we got there, it was so far off, but the rifle can accurately hit just about anything you can see through the scope. Including 10" dia. circles at 1000 Meters (almost 1100 yds) The only thing I don't like about this one is the SS barrel doesn't look right with the rest of the weapon. Should match the rest of the coatings and one of these days......

With a composite stock, I believe it would weigh in around 8.5 - 9 lbs, but you can throw either of them off a rooftop, into 10' of sticky mud, and pick it up and it will still fire accurately, providing that the scope survived. I know the iron sights did. Try that with one of the other rifles. It is probably one of the most versatile and accurate issue weapons ever manufactured and rugged as hell.

One thing though, I've never fired one with a collapsable stock.

In my neighborhood, there are 6 guys, 4 ex-Army and 2 ex-Marines and between us we own 9 M1A's and we'll never give them up. Once you own one, you're hooked. Also, the new SOCOM and Scout M1A's are much shorter and lighter than most of ours.

Anyway, good luck on your search.

Packrat

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[backyardsniper]

I talked with a buddy of mine who owns a local gun shop and told him what i had in mind, Here i sthe parts list he gave me. He specializes in building AR type rifles and he has built me a rifle previously and has also built for several friends of mine and he does very high quality work. Take a look at this parts list and tell me what you think or what you would change. BTW I have ruled out the m1a build for this project that is something I will do later as a project of its own but I just don't feel it will properly fill the needs for what I want to do with this rifle

Here's what I recommend on a .308 AR:
CMT upper and lower set
Aero Precision bolt carrier group
CMMG lower parts kit
Geissele G2S 2 stage trigger or CMC singe stage 3.5 drop-in
MagPul UBR stock
Fortis Mfg SWITCH 14" rail (top an bottom Picatinny rail with KeyMod sides and QD sling cups)
Fulton Armory Criterion 20" M110 1:10" barrel
MagPul K2+ grip
LaRue rail cover clips (covers the Fortis rail without adding weight)

 

[Rimfire]

With your criteria, "accuracy is of the utmost concern. Ruggedness and reliability" You need to add LMT to the list. Accuracy has been very good and ruggedness and reliability is as good as it gets, so much so that it was the choice of the Brit Army.

With their patented no barrel nut system you can swap barrels in minutes with two screws and a torque wrench and have a 308 and 6.5 without needing two uppers.

You can go chrome lined or precision SS Barrel which were from Rock.

The one I tested had a 16" chrome lined duty barrel and it was around 1/2 moa at 100 and held sub moa at 600 with 168 FGMM.




500 yard

 

[lilharcher]

I have an LMT too and love it (piston .223/6.8), but consider it more a tactical/battle rifle, as opposed to a precision/hunting rifle.......heavy for one - a stock 16" .308 is 9.8lbs without a scope or accessories. For two, it is well documented, by independent testing (and LMT's own guarantee of only 1.5 MOA), that the switch barrels are not that accurate......a number of people only claim to get 1.25 to 1.5 moa accuracy out of the switch barrels.

The Criterion you selected should be at least twice as accurate at 0.75 MOA, and I'd be shocked if either the Criterion or JPE didn't do 0.50 MOA. I have a JPE barrel, and my friend has a Criterion that I shoot next to frequently, and both will run circles around the LMT, holding all other factors consistent. But again, I really like LMT rifles, but not for this application.

 

[Rimfire]

I have an LMT too and love it (piston .223/6.8), but consider it more a tactical/battle rifle, as opposed to a precision/hunting rifle.......heavy for one - a stock 16" .308 is 9.8lbs without a scope or accessories. For two, it is well documented, by independent testing (and LMT's own guarantee of only 1.5 MOA), that the switch barrels are not that accurate......a number of people only claim to get 1.25 to 1.5 moa accuracy out of the switch barrels.

The Criterion you selected should be at least twice as accurate at 0.75 MOA, and I'd be shocked if either the Criterion or JPE didn't do 0.50 MOA. I have a JPE barrel, and my friend has a Criterion that I shoot next to frequently, and both will run circles around the LMT, holding all other factors consistent. But again, I really like LMT rifles, but not for this application.

Apples to apples, go DI and throw that piston gun away if you are looking for accuracy you will never see it, maybe with exception to an ADCOR with a free floated piston. Not a fair comparison piston to DI, just my .02 but this is not the first LMT 308 that went .5 moa just calling it as I see it. My 223 DI went .75 also with 77 grain black hills.