CFE223 in cold weather??

[Mike Matteson]

Interesting, where do you find these scale values.

 

[ChrisTeam2]

Mike, thank you for putting out that data sheet.

In my experience, using Temp. stable powders is a huge time saver if one is seeking accuracy and precision, for any caliber... Attached is an independent study which looks at the Temperature Insensitivity of Varget, IMR 4166, IMR 4046 and Vihtavuori N140 for .308 Win F-TR. Please draw your own conclusions with this study, but...

For me, as I live in AZ, if I go to sub-zero Temperatures for any applications with 308, I will not be using CFE-223. It would be a waste of time as for accuracy and precision the rifle loads would have to be completely redone with CFE-223 whereas my accuracy node in .308 offers about 30 fps variance in the sweet spot (that I have tested so far) which one would probably not find with CFE-223 across daytime temperature shifts in sub-freezing temperatures: per my records, 1.7 fps/degree from previously published data.

I do use CFE-223 in my 5.56 NATO loads for mid range practice and recreation but one has to keep a log of the velocity changes and given a choice I heavily favor the use of H4895 (Temp. Stable .23 fps/degree, published data) for both 5.56mm and .308. Due to H4895 unavailability over the past 3+ years, Varget seems like a good alternative (to H4895 or CFE-223 which NOT temp. stable), although N-140, IMR-4166 and IMR-4016 may also be good alternatives with decent Temp. stability based on the attached study; not inclusive of other Temp. stable powders which could also do the job...

 

[Mike Matteson]

Mike, thank you for putting out that data sheet.

In my experience, using Temp. stable powders is a huge time saver if one is seeking accuracy and precision, for any caliber... Attached is an independent study which looks at the Temperature Insensitivity of Varget, IMR 4166, IMR 4046 and Vihtavuori N140 for .308 Win F-TR. Please draw you own conclusions this study, but...

For me, as I live in AZ, if I go to sub-zero Temperatures for any applications with 308, I will not be using CFE-223. It would be a waste of time as for accuracy and precision the rifle loads would have to be completely redone with CFE-223 whereas my accuracy node in .308 offers about 30 fps variance in the sweet spot (that I have tested so far) which one would probably not find with CFE-223 across daytime temperature shifts in sub-freezing temperatures: per my records, 1.7 fps/degree from previously published data.

I do use CFE-223 in my 5.56 NATO loads for mid range practice and recreation but one has to keep a log of the velocity changes and given a choice I heavily favor the use of H4895 (Temp. Stable .23 fps/degree, published data) for both 5.56mm and .308. Due to H4895 unavailability over the past 3+ years, Varget seems like a good alternative (to H4895 or CFE-223 which NOT temp. stable), although N-140, IMR-4166 and IMR-4016 may also be good alternatives with decent Temp. stability based on the attached study; not inclusive of other Temp. stable powders which could also do the job...

Thank for info. I have downloaded it into my Temp folder.
Anything on H4350, H4831, and H1000 for data sheets like have forward to us. I watch all the time for info on Temps.
I have hunted in weather from -20 to 110' over the years. I generally use H4350 powders. Found it to be very stable.
Well over 20yrs ago I ran into a problem using IMR 4350, and IMR 4831. I develop a load for a rifle in the winter time in So. Cal. Temp was around 50'+-. Went back to that load in the summer. Weather was around 100+. Same powder load, and below a primer out of the case, and a very stift bolt. Figure it out that temp was a big problem with those powders. Never used them again. Scared the hell out of me. Gave away 16+ lbs of powder.
Some of the powder in your chart are single based pwoders. In all the reading I have done over the pass few years. Double base powders have more problems with temp than the single base powders.
A little more input. I generally load over the manual top load. Depending on what powder and pressure signs show up. The IMR 4350 I was 5+ grs over and the H4350 I am 5grs over in powder. Lost 100fps between the two, but never had any problems with the H4350. Found it to very stable in weather from -20 to 110. I hunt or hunted in So Cal, Az Colo, Wy, Nv, MT, & Idaho. So like you I see some big temp changes.
I always try let people know about the temp powders. Some get mader than hell about it. Especially when they are pounding there chest about there powder loads.

 

[ChrisTeam2]

Hi Mike, you are welcome.

You obviously have a lot of hunting and loading experience behind you in different climates which others can benefit from, please keep up the messaging!

I don't have any data sheets on H4350, H4831/H4831SC or H-1000, powders I also use. I will keep an eye out and send over/post data if I run into data sheets or additional experimental studies as it pertains to those powders.

A fairly new double base, temperature insensitive powder may be also of interest to you and others: VV N568 is both Temp. insensitive & non-hydroscopic (humidity content in the powder can induce large velocity variations even from the same lot). It is really close in burn rate to Retumbo, N570 and Norma 217 (the later 2 use large extruded kernels). Just began loading with N568 this summer.

VV N565 is also another double based Vihtavuori powder which is suppose to be temp. insensitive.

I am really straying away from topic: "CFE-223 use in cold weather", but... The point being is that temp. stable powders are going to better serve re-loaders/hunters in cold weather conditions.

 

[sdakotaguy]

Had warmer temps than average for our rifle deer opener. Opted to use the 90 grain lead free bullet to fill two antlerless tags. Heart shot for each deer. Neither was much over 100 yards. No suprise terminal performance was good, given shot placement. Exit wounds were rather impressive given the bullet construction, IMHO.

 

[Mike Matteson]

Hi Mike, you are welcome.

You obviously have a lot of hunting and loading experience behind you in different climates which others can benefit from, please keep up the messaging!

I don't have any data sheets on H4350, H4831/H4831SC or H-1000, powders I also use. I will keep an eye out and send over/post data if I run into data sheets or additional experimental studies as it pertains to those powders.

A fairly new double base, temperature insensitive powder may be also of interest to you and others: VV N568 is both Temp. insensitive & non-hydroscopic (humidity content in the powder can induce large velocity variations even from the same lot). It is really close in burn rate to Retumbo, N570 and Norma 217 (the later 2 use large extruded kernels). Just began loading with N568 this summer.

VV N565 is also another double based Vihtavuori powder which is suppose to be temp. insensitive.

I am really straying away from topic: "CFE-223 use in cold weather", but... The point being is that temp. stable powders are going to better serve re-loaders/hunters in cold weather conditions.

If you are in a stable temp area, which is hard to believe, except for a few states. in the southern states like Fl. When I had a major problem was in California. Temp changed about 60' from cold to warm. Now I realized I was loading hot loads. No creatoring or ejector marks at that time. That when I load push the primer out of the case into my rifle and had a hard time opening the bolt. From that time going forward I am don't want to cross the path again ever. Here some additional info. Looking for other that I have.

 

[comfisherman]

Interesting charts on those pdfs, thanks for posting those. Spent some time playing in the artic last winter, and have thought about cold an prepping for spending time up there. Aside from those weeks I usually avoid anything colder than -20, but some trips it's just likely to be near there. Guess it's time to work up some varget loads and maybe add some more h4350 for the bigger cartridges.

 

[kfreeze]

I have used CFE223 for a few years to hunt chucks from the end of March to the end of July here in Idaho. I have 26 inch 8 twist barrels and shoot 75 gr Hornady ELDMs. The CFE223 has been a great powder for me. I just replaced one of my 223 barrels with a new 8 twist Criterion barrel and can't get that thing to shoot. Velocities and groups are all over the place. A friend who used to be a competition shooter has suggested that perhaps the CFE is not good when the outside temps hit the teens and low 20's. Chuck season usually varies from about 35 to 90 and it burns well though that temp range. I have some hunting loads from last season that are charged with AR-COMP behind 77g STMKs so tomorrow I'm going to try those and I've loaded up some of my annealed Lapua brass with the AR-Comp and the ELDMs. Hopefully I will finally be able to prove that this barrel will shoot.
Has anyone here had experience with CFE223 in low temps?

You can't make your barrel like what you want it to. I start with a bullet and powder combo and shoot a ladder test, on paper not over a chrono, and if there isn't a clear 1/4-1/2 moa node there then I switch the powder or bullet. Less than 15 shots and I either have a clear sweet spot to start or know to not fight it.

 

[Mike Matteson]

Interesting, where do you find these scale values.

I scan the net and read others imput. Anything that I can scan and store. I had a problem in the late 1990's with a powder. Changed to H4350 and H4831 powder and have stayed there in most of my rifles. I do use some doulb base powder, but not many. They have been tested in hot weather, but I haven't done much in colder weather. Going too somewhere along the line.
I won't want to see somebody else have the same problem I had a long time ago.
I source out on different powder manufactures info. I look to see if it's a single or double powder. It's my understanding that some of the newer double based powder are as sensitive as before. I haven't tried any of those powder yet. I have some of them in stock to see how they due.
I am now looking at different powders and their burn rate. Looking for powders that are a little slower or faster from what I nornally use.
Here some other files on powder. You'll see some difference here. But that what was or is being put out. It does give you and idea as to what happens with different powders. I try and us the lease amount of change in velocity by outside temperature. Now I have really shoot over 500yds, but going too with P. dogs hopefully this next year.

 

[xsn10s]

My chuck load with my AR15 was a 53 gr VMAX and TAC powder. But I have to change the charge once it gets near 70 degree and I switch to Benchmark when temps get hot. I never had any issues with accuracy or hangfires in my AR15. And that's with standard primers. YMMV.

 

[rcg5076]

It sounds like the barrel may be your issue. I have a 30-06 Criterion barrel and i can't get that thing to shoot either. As for CFE223, I have loaded 16lbs of this powder in several different calibers. In my 6x45 Ar15 I load 27.5grs and shoot it year round. PDogs in spring, varmints and pest year round, hogs in the winter and carry it as a truck gun year round. Yes its not temperature stable like H4350, but if you load near max it will shoot pretty clean in my Ar15. Your barrel may have issue and it may not like CFE223 so you might have to change powders or barrel.

 

[dstancu]

Interesting, where do you find these scale values.

here's a common powders listing for temperature sensitivity, it's a good start

 

[sdakotaguy]

Super information to fall back on. Thank you all!

Looks like CFE 223 may be one of the worst options on the market in terms of temp stability.

I did end up using the CFE 223 load in the 6mm ARC for this rifle season deer hunt as temperatures happened to be much more mild than normal. Expect I'll need to sacrifice some velocity. Terminal effect with the 90 grain CX did quite well over CFE 223 this seaso.

I have little reservations about slowing down this load with H4895 & evaluate again next season.