9mm side arm

memtb said:
Energy has little to nothing to do with the firearms ability to stop the animal! It's, placement, the depth of penetration, the amount of bone, organs, muscle, and nerves damaged/destroyed while said bullet is travailing through the animal!
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Well, it's been a few years since college physics but everything you just talked about requires energy! Look at any expanding round, the manufacturer probably lists a minimum recommended velocity to get its advertised performance. Coincidentally velocity with mass is all you need to calculate energy…

The only thing that you can really argue is that accuracy/shot placement gives a significant advantage.
 
memtb said:
I'll let this attempt to explain my position on bullet energy transmitted to target (game or other)! A rather long but very interesting and enlightening article. memtb

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I've looked at the first three tabs. You are confusing stopping power with energy my friend. He is pretty clear so far, don't have time to read it all right now by the looks of it.
 
jbronner13 said:
Well that didn't take long…didn't even look at the 10mm Tac XP rounds….I stand corrected, they are within sneezing distance from an ME perspective.

That being said I own one Glock and I'm about as accurate with that gun as a weatherman's forecast…..maybe the M&P 10mm is in my future…you mentioned Sig Sauer and the P320, I have one and shoot it well, do they have a 10mm caliber X change kit now?
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Ohhhhhh yes. It is the p320 X ten. It is sweeeeeet. I knew I had to have one when I learned about it. I sold my G29 and another pistol to buy it. I was on a waiting list and the gun came in. I jumped on it like a chicken on a June bug. I won't ever get rid of my G20 or my G40 (long barreled 10MM). But this one is really special. I wanted M&P to make a 10 mm for years. When they finally came out, I hesitated. Shot a friends. It was OK (though it didn't cycle 40S&W like my Glocks do) but I waited. Then when the sig came out. I am glad I did. BTW, the sig cycles 40 S&W like the Glock does. It is a plus if you are in a pinch. But I shoot 10mm because I reload for it.
 
Les in Wyoming said:
Ohhhhhh yes. It is the p320 X ten. It is sweeeeeet. I knew I had to have one when I learned about it. I sold my G29 and another pistol to buy it. I was on a waiting list and the gun came in. I jumped on it like a chicken on a June bug. I won't ever get rid of my G20 or my G40 (long barreled 10MM). But this one is really special. I wanted M&P to make a 10 mm for years. When they finally came out, I hesitated. Shot a friends. It was OK (though it didn't cycle 40S&W like my Glocks do) but I waited. Then when the sig came out. I am glad I did. BTW, the sig cycles 40 S&W like the Glock does. It is a plus if you are in a pinch. But I shoot 10mm because I reload for it.
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I couldn't find a 10mm caliber exchange kit on their website, maybe down the road they offer it 🤷‍♂️.
 
jbronner13 said:
I spent the morning looking at a variety of 10mm offerings in semi-auto (both 1911 and non-1911), and compared them to revolvers in 357 mag and 44 mag (I just looked at Smith & Wesson).

After digging through the specs I don't think we can justify the argument that (revolvers are heavier). The colt delta elite 10mm is 35 ounces empty, the Glock 20 SF (smaller one) is in the 33 ounce range as was the Sig P320 X Ten.

The lightest 357 I could find was the 360pd and it was 12 ounces. The 329PD 44 mag was 25 ounces. I will wager recoil sucks in both of those models something fierce making follow up shots near impossible but from a weight perspective I can't see the generalization that "revolvers are too heavy" continuing to hold water. Add in magazine weight with a fully loaded magazine and the 10mm Semis are in the same realm as stainless N frame Smith & Wesson's loaded up. Now….which one are you going to shoot better is a whole other can of worms.

We can all debate the merits and which work better for us, all comes down to personal comfort and personal performance. I can tell you a 13 inch LOP is best for my 5'4 Hobbit Frame (even have the hairy feet to go along with it) but my buddy Ed, 6'5 Polish farm boy with catchers mitts for hands is probably going to shoot my rifles very poorly.

One thing we can all however agree on collectively…..9mm sucks for shooting bears.
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That 9mm shot may have kept someone from getting eaten. May have lol
 
While all of those big honkin bullets hit hard, they lack penetration due to their relatively slow velocity and large size. They also kick like a mule making them not very useful for the average person using a handgun for bear defense. If you can't hit the bear then you can't kill the bear. It is my humble theory based on some unscientific back yard tests that a 158 gr FMJ .357 magnum round travelling at 1300 fps or more penetrates farther than a 9mm, 10mm, .40 or .45. in wood, which is similar to a bears skull than ballistic jelly. It's also much easier for the average person to shoot. What are your thoughts?
 
Teri Anne said:
While all of those big honkin bullets hit hard, they lack penetration due to their relatively slow velocity and large size. They also kick like a mule making them not very useful for the average person using a handgun for bear defense. If you can't hit the bear then you can't kill the bear. It is my humble theory based on some unscientific back yard tests that a 158 gr FMJ .357 magnum round travelling at 1300 fps or more penetrates farther than a 9mm, 10mm, .40 or .45. in wood, which is similar to a bears skull than ballistic jelly. It's also much easier for the average person to shoot. What are your thoughts?
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Acknowledged, a 158gr FMJ or a 180 FPJ from a full-out .357 Mag has got a lot of gravity in the handgun power game, but... I think the 10mm with Underwood 140gr extreme penetrator can out horse it in almost all the good bullet weights, just my opinion on the two. Here's a little field test you may have seen before, I'm not sure the .357 Mag can hang with the 10mm in this field test,
Now to be fair, Underwood does make a 140gr extreme penetrator in .357 Mag that shades the 10mm by 50 fps and about 47 fpe on paper, could it pass the same test, using of course bulletproof glass as a hardened target test plate representing the hardness of a Bear skull the bony or cartilaginous framework of the skull. Just my thought(s) Cheers
 
Teri Anne said:
While all of those big honkin bullets hit hard, they lack penetration due to their relatively slow velocity and large size. They also kick like a mule making them not very useful for the average person using a handgun for bear defense. If you can't hit the bear then you can't kill the bear. It is my humble theory based on some unscientific back yard tests that a 158 gr FMJ .357 magnum round travelling at 1300 fps or more penetrates farther than a 9mm, 10mm, .40 or .45. in wood, which is similar to a bears skull than ballistic jelly. It's also much easier for the average person to shoot. What are your thoughts?
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Penetration has a lot to do with sectional density mass/density^2. So a 9mm/357 that's heavy will have better SD and penetration than an equivalent weight from 10mm/40 and much more than a .45. 10mm does have a strong pentation advantage compared to .44 calibers for this reason. Now when you're talking about thick hide/breaking bones/making damage I don't think the comparisons are so easy to generalize or give a clear advantage based on SD alone. But yes, it's a moot point if you can't hit what you're shooting at and manipulate your firearm.
 
436 said:
Acknowledged, a 158gr FMJ or a 180 FPJ from a full-out .357 Mag has got a lot of gravity in the handgun power game, but... I think the 10mm with Underwood 140gr extreme penetrator can out horse it in almost all the good bullet weights, just my opinion on the two. Here's a little field test you may have seen before, I'm not sure the .357 Mag can hang with the 10mm in this field test,
Now to be fair, Underwood does make a 140gr extreme penetrator in .357 Mag that shades the 10mm by 50 fps and about 47 fpe on paper, could it pass the same test, using of course bulletproof glass as a hardened target test plate representing the hardness of a Bear skull the bony or cartilaginous framework of the skull. Just my thought(s) Cheers
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Interesting in that it does show the penetration of the LeHigh defense bullets. Penetration like this is seldom needed in real life, as is the comparison to shooting through bulletproof glass. The only people I can think of who may want to shoot through bulletproof glass are criminals.
I tried out some LeHigh Defense bullets a few years ago. At the time I had loaded up some hot .380 cartridges and fired them through a Glock 42, one of the few Glock's that I have owned. I was called by my neighbor on the farm where I do a lot of woodchuck shooting who had what was apparently a rabid raccoon trying to get into the house. I was not home when I got the call and drove to the farm with the 380 I had with me to take care of the raccoon. It was loaded with the LeHigh defense bullets.
As I came around the corner the raccoon lost interest in the house and started toward me at a stumbling gate. As soon as it gave me a clear shot away from the house I shot it, hitting it 3 times with the LeHigh bullets, seeing the puff of fur with each shot. The critter slowed down but was still coming. At this point I changed magazines to one loaded with Hornady factory loads shooting the 90 gr FTX. One shot and Mr. Raccoon expired immediately. To be fair, the raccoon had been hit 3 times prior to shooting it with the Hornady's which might have been a factor. I was able to recover one of the LeHigh bullets and found that it had penetrated and continued through the raccoon without expanding at all. I thought that maybe a raccoon was not enough resistance to open the bullet only to find that when shooting at several layers of 2 x 6 pine back home that it stopped in the 3rd board again with no expansion. It looked like the one recovered in the video, no expansion. At the time LeHigh touted that the bullet would segment providing a large wound channel. This was not the case and that was the last time I bought any LeHigh bullets. It is possible they sent the wrong bullets, I never bothered to follow up.
 

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