liltank
Well-Known Member
Boy that thing has a heck of a recoil to it. I think I would want a more effective break on it. Cool rifle thought.
Tank
Tank
.510 Allen Mag @ 1,000 y.
- Thread starter RDM416
- Start date
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Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Dr. Vette,
Not sure why the fact the video was from 8 months ago makes any difference, its the same rifle the was posted about. Do not believe anyone said it was video from this shooting session, just that there was video of shooting the 510 Allen Magnum, pretty accurate discription of the video to me......
Not sure why the fact the video was from 8 months ago makes any difference, its the same rifle the was posted about. Do not believe anyone said it was video from this shooting session, just that there was video of shooting the 510 Allen Magnum, pretty accurate discription of the video to me......
liltank
Well-Known Member
Hey Kirby,
Whats the difference between your 510AM and the 50BMG?
Tank
Whats the difference between your 510AM and the 50BMG?
Tank
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Liltank,
The ONLY muzzle brake that is more effective then my 5 port is the factory armalite muzzle brake that comes on the factory rifle. Unfortunately, because of the muzzle diameter of the barrel on that rifle, it would not allow the factory brake to be used.
There is simply no way to eliminate a 50 cal weapons recoil, that said, recoil is nothing like a conventional rifle. While it may appear severe, it really is not in any way. The big 50s just MOVE alot. By that I mean, they will slide rearward 5-7" on each shot, much more then a conventional rifle. Recoil velocity is quite slow however so its a slow push in the shoulder.
The problem is that since these rifles move back so much under fire is that you have to shoot them differently then a conventional rifle, especially from a bench. You have to keep your neck tightened up because if you shoot one of these rifles totally relaxed, the rifle will come back enough that with a relaxed neck and shoulders, you will become intimate with the scope!!!
Also, you have to keep your hands and other things out of harms way. Position your hand in the wrong place and get it hit by the bipod mount or pistol grip and the 30 to 35 lb rifles movement under recoil will remind you pretty quickly that your hand was in the wrong location.
Back to recoil. when you set a 30-35 lb rifle into motion with this kind of energy, there is only so much ANY muzzle brake can do to slow the rearward movement of the rifle down. Basically, thats they will do, slow the rifle down a bit. The heavier the rifle, the more it will move you under recoil simply because the rifle has more momentum and also because the heavier rifle is harder for the muzzle brake to slow down.
My sporter weight versions of this same rifle use a Lilja Navy contour sporter barrel, similiar to the factory barrel contour but I then have them fluted with Dans heavy 50 cal flutes which drops weight significantly so you get a rifle that is several pounds lighter then even the factory rifle. With these I can reuse the factory armalite muzzle brake which again is THE best 50 cal brake on the market hands down. felt recoil with the sporter version of the 510 AM feels sharper then the heavy rifles because recoil velocity is higher but its a lighter push because the muzzle brake slows the rifle more effectively. Not sure if that makes sense or not.
Heavy 50 cal rifles will move you alot but its a push. Lighter 50 cal rifles (with the best brakes) will slap you a bit sharper but move you less. Same as any conventional rifle, just scaled up for the 50 cals.
This rifle is also loaded to pretty mild levels, obviously because the rifle likes this load. At 2700 fps with the 750 gr A-Max, this is a very mild load in the 510 Allen Magnum but obviously an extremely accurate load as well.
In my personal Sporter 510 AM, my load produces 2960 fps with the same bullet and out of a barrel that is three inches shorter then this rifle so it shows the potential of the round for performance. These higher pressure loads also make a muzzle brake work more effectively, especially out of the lighter rifles because they have a dramatically higher muzzle gas pressure which is what makes the muzzle brakes work better. The larger the gas volume, the higher the gas pressure, the better the muzzle brakes work.
In a heavy rifle however, these heavy loads induce more energy into the rifle so they have more momentum and they are even harder to slow down with the muzzle brake. Again, nothing severe but more movement then with a lighter rifle.
Simply put, you would be very hard pressed to find a more effective muzzle brake then the one that is on this rifle unless you used the factory Armalite brake and as mentioned that was not an option with this large muzzle diameter.
The ONLY muzzle brake that is more effective then my 5 port is the factory armalite muzzle brake that comes on the factory rifle. Unfortunately, because of the muzzle diameter of the barrel on that rifle, it would not allow the factory brake to be used.
There is simply no way to eliminate a 50 cal weapons recoil, that said, recoil is nothing like a conventional rifle. While it may appear severe, it really is not in any way. The big 50s just MOVE alot. By that I mean, they will slide rearward 5-7" on each shot, much more then a conventional rifle. Recoil velocity is quite slow however so its a slow push in the shoulder.
The problem is that since these rifles move back so much under fire is that you have to shoot them differently then a conventional rifle, especially from a bench. You have to keep your neck tightened up because if you shoot one of these rifles totally relaxed, the rifle will come back enough that with a relaxed neck and shoulders, you will become intimate with the scope!!!
Also, you have to keep your hands and other things out of harms way. Position your hand in the wrong place and get it hit by the bipod mount or pistol grip and the 30 to 35 lb rifles movement under recoil will remind you pretty quickly that your hand was in the wrong location.
Back to recoil. when you set a 30-35 lb rifle into motion with this kind of energy, there is only so much ANY muzzle brake can do to slow the rearward movement of the rifle down. Basically, thats they will do, slow the rifle down a bit. The heavier the rifle, the more it will move you under recoil simply because the rifle has more momentum and also because the heavier rifle is harder for the muzzle brake to slow down.
My sporter weight versions of this same rifle use a Lilja Navy contour sporter barrel, similiar to the factory barrel contour but I then have them fluted with Dans heavy 50 cal flutes which drops weight significantly so you get a rifle that is several pounds lighter then even the factory rifle. With these I can reuse the factory armalite muzzle brake which again is THE best 50 cal brake on the market hands down. felt recoil with the sporter version of the 510 AM feels sharper then the heavy rifles because recoil velocity is higher but its a lighter push because the muzzle brake slows the rifle more effectively. Not sure if that makes sense or not.
Heavy 50 cal rifles will move you alot but its a push. Lighter 50 cal rifles (with the best brakes) will slap you a bit sharper but move you less. Same as any conventional rifle, just scaled up for the 50 cals.
This rifle is also loaded to pretty mild levels, obviously because the rifle likes this load. At 2700 fps with the 750 gr A-Max, this is a very mild load in the 510 Allen Magnum but obviously an extremely accurate load as well.
In my personal Sporter 510 AM, my load produces 2960 fps with the same bullet and out of a barrel that is three inches shorter then this rifle so it shows the potential of the round for performance. These higher pressure loads also make a muzzle brake work more effectively, especially out of the lighter rifles because they have a dramatically higher muzzle gas pressure which is what makes the muzzle brakes work better. The larger the gas volume, the higher the gas pressure, the better the muzzle brakes work.
In a heavy rifle however, these heavy loads induce more energy into the rifle so they have more momentum and they are even harder to slow down with the muzzle brake. Again, nothing severe but more movement then with a lighter rifle.
Simply put, you would be very hard pressed to find a more effective muzzle brake then the one that is on this rifle unless you used the factory Armalite brake and as mentioned that was not an option with this large muzzle diameter.
paphil
Well-Known Member
That is funny because my initial thoughts on watching the video were ,first ,that guy( the shooter) is not very big. What is the recoil going to do to him? Then, after the shot, my first thought was that there wasn't that much recoil and no muzzle jump at all! granted it isn't a22-250 but from the video it looked quite shootable! Good work Kirby !
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Lil Tank,
The 510 Allen Magnum is nothing more then the 50 BMG improved to my Allen Magnum shoulder and body taper design. You get roughly 15% increase in usible powder capacity over the 50 BMG but you also get a much better case design which dramatically limits case stretching which can be an issue with upper end loads in the standard 50 BMG.
Standard 50 BMG loads will get you around 2600 to 2650 fps with the 750 gr A-Max. That said, many BR match shooters will load this bullet to the 2550 to 2600 fps range.
The 510 AMs will start at around 2700 fps and go up from there. The fastest I have driven the 750 gr A-Max was 3050 fps out of a rebuilt AR-50 that the customer had me fit a 45", 1.750" straight cylinder Lilja to. That was a 60 lb rifle and recoil was extremly mild with my 5 port brake. That is an exception however and generally velocities max out in the 2950 fps range with a 30-32" barrel length with proper pressures for the 50 BMG parent case.
I am currently working on a new 50 cal wildcat called the 510 Maximus. Still based on the 50 BMG case but I shorten the case neck down DRAMATICALLY but leave the overall case length the same. This increased the case body length by around 0.400". With a case the size of the 50 BMG, this will add another 15 to 20% powder capacity over even the 510 Allen Magnum!!! I also increased body taper slightly so that it can be loaded to slightly higher chamber pressures with good extraction properties. My goal is to see 3100 fps in a standard 30-32" barrel length!!! Time will tell. I have the reamers in stock and test barrel, just waiting for the loading dies to arrive for testing.
The 510 Allen Magnum is nothing more then the 50 BMG improved to my Allen Magnum shoulder and body taper design. You get roughly 15% increase in usible powder capacity over the 50 BMG but you also get a much better case design which dramatically limits case stretching which can be an issue with upper end loads in the standard 50 BMG.
Standard 50 BMG loads will get you around 2600 to 2650 fps with the 750 gr A-Max. That said, many BR match shooters will load this bullet to the 2550 to 2600 fps range.
The 510 AMs will start at around 2700 fps and go up from there. The fastest I have driven the 750 gr A-Max was 3050 fps out of a rebuilt AR-50 that the customer had me fit a 45", 1.750" straight cylinder Lilja to. That was a 60 lb rifle and recoil was extremly mild with my 5 port brake. That is an exception however and generally velocities max out in the 2950 fps range with a 30-32" barrel length with proper pressures for the 50 BMG parent case.
I am currently working on a new 50 cal wildcat called the 510 Maximus. Still based on the 50 BMG case but I shorten the case neck down DRAMATICALLY but leave the overall case length the same. This increased the case body length by around 0.400". With a case the size of the 50 BMG, this will add another 15 to 20% powder capacity over even the 510 Allen Magnum!!! I also increased body taper slightly so that it can be loaded to slightly higher chamber pressures with good extraction properties. My goal is to see 3100 fps in a standard 30-32" barrel length!!! Time will tell. I have the reamers in stock and test barrel, just waiting for the loading dies to arrive for testing.
liltank
Well-Known Member
For the Maximus, you might want to stand back before yanking the trigger on that beast. That just sounds like a world of hurt. What is the load data look like on these beasts? Will the H50BMG be slow enough to make that case capacity work properly without being dangerously over pressured? What other powders do you use for these dragons? You sparked an interest and curious as to how this all works out!
Tank
Tank
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Why would you want to stand back before pulling the trigger?
If you can shoot a 50 BMG, you can shoot any of my wildcats just fine. As mentioned before. the higher muzzle gas volume and pressures make the muzzle brakes work even more effectively then the standard BMG.
H-50BMG will work fine in the Maximum, you will not have 100% load density but it will still work just fine if you pay attention and know how to read chamber pressure signs in a 50 cal weapon which is nothing like a conventional rifle.
US869 may be a better choice as its slower burning then H-50BMG. The best powder will likely be VV 20N29 as it should offer the highest load density and likely best velocity as well and has been proven extremely consistant. Just more expensive then the other powders used.
If your looking to save a buck, surplus powders such as WC872 and WC860 can be made to use perfectly well and they are around 1/3 the price of commerical powder but you have to do your bench work to figure out the burn rate of your lot of powder, thats why they are cheaper, less lab testing has been done to determine exact burn rate on the surplus powders. I would never recommend pulled surplus powder, only new.
You make these big 50s out to be scary monsters, that is not the case at all. My wife shoots my 510 AM as well as I do, your overhyping the recoil produced by these chamberings. I have several 12 guage shotguns that kick MUCH more violently then any of my 510s have. My 458 Lott has MUCH more severe felt recoil with its 500 gr SP loaded to 2350 fps. Its not what your making it out to be in the least.
If you can shoot a 50 BMG, you can shoot any of my wildcats just fine. As mentioned before. the higher muzzle gas volume and pressures make the muzzle brakes work even more effectively then the standard BMG.
H-50BMG will work fine in the Maximum, you will not have 100% load density but it will still work just fine if you pay attention and know how to read chamber pressure signs in a 50 cal weapon which is nothing like a conventional rifle.
US869 may be a better choice as its slower burning then H-50BMG. The best powder will likely be VV 20N29 as it should offer the highest load density and likely best velocity as well and has been proven extremely consistant. Just more expensive then the other powders used.
If your looking to save a buck, surplus powders such as WC872 and WC860 can be made to use perfectly well and they are around 1/3 the price of commerical powder but you have to do your bench work to figure out the burn rate of your lot of powder, thats why they are cheaper, less lab testing has been done to determine exact burn rate on the surplus powders. I would never recommend pulled surplus powder, only new.
You make these big 50s out to be scary monsters, that is not the case at all. My wife shoots my 510 AM as well as I do, your overhyping the recoil produced by these chamberings. I have several 12 guage shotguns that kick MUCH more violently then any of my 510s have. My 458 Lott has MUCH more severe felt recoil with its 500 gr SP loaded to 2350 fps. Its not what your making it out to be in the least.
liltank
Well-Known Member
Sorry, that's not what I was going for. I have shot the M2 when I was in the service. When I had my legs wrapped around the tripod at 200lbs, and it was still lifting me up, makes me think shoulder firing these things would be interesting. I have never fired a 50 cal. rifle before other than the duece. I believe you have tamed the beast. SO you said that pressure signs are different than a normal rifle. How so? What do you look for on the 50 chambering?
If ever given a chance to shoot a 50 in a rifle I wouldn't pass it up. I would be first in line as a matter of fact. Biggest gun I ever fired was a 155mm Howitzer, but it had a pretty good recoil system on it!
"ARTILLERY!!!"
Tank
If ever given a chance to shoot a 50 in a rifle I wouldn't pass it up. I would be first in line as a matter of fact. Biggest gun I ever fired was a 155mm Howitzer, but it had a pretty good recoil system on it!
"ARTILLERY!!!"Tank
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RDM416
Well-Known Member
Liltank,
I am using H50-BMG. The load I am using is 235 grains with a 750 grain Amax, I have gone up to as much as 140. I think Kirby has gone a little more than that. US869 is another powder that will work, but I have only use H50-BMG.
Kiby explained the recoil very well. Everyone who sees this thing wants to shoot it but they are always afraid of the recoil and think I am tricking them when I say it don't kick much. The first thing they usually say after pulling the trigger is "you were right it don't kick". For the first few shots you will think it don't kick, then you begin to realize just how much it is pushing you around. After about 10 or so rounds my neck usually starts to hurt, kind of like getting whiplash. The thing you have to be aware of is that you have a 50 lb rifle moving back in a big push. If you get the wrong thing in the way, that is a lot of momentum and it will hurt you. I was using a new rear bag yesterday that is taller than my normal bag and it changed my hand position........... and the pistol grip got me.
The other thing everyone does who shoots this thing for the first time ........ they look up and GRIN.
I am using H50-BMG. The load I am using is 235 grains with a 750 grain Amax, I have gone up to as much as 140. I think Kirby has gone a little more than that. US869 is another powder that will work, but I have only use H50-BMG.
Kiby explained the recoil very well. Everyone who sees this thing wants to shoot it but they are always afraid of the recoil and think I am tricking them when I say it don't kick much. The first thing they usually say after pulling the trigger is "you were right it don't kick". For the first few shots you will think it don't kick, then you begin to realize just how much it is pushing you around. After about 10 or so rounds my neck usually starts to hurt, kind of like getting whiplash. The thing you have to be aware of is that you have a 50 lb rifle moving back in a big push. If you get the wrong thing in the way, that is a lot of momentum and it will hurt you. I was using a new rear bag yesterday that is taller than my normal bag and it changed my hand position........... and the pistol grip got me.
The other thing everyone does who shoots this thing for the first time ........ they look up and GRIN.
Good
Well-Known Member
How long does brass last with mid to moderate pressure levels in this beast?
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
For a standard 50 BMG, to check chamber pressures, you should be able to rechamber a fired case with no real resistance on the bolt handle when closing the bolt on a fired, unsized case.
If you do feel resistance, your loaded to hot.
With the 510 Allen Magnum, its a little harder then just simply rechambering a fired case because the minimum taper design of this wildcat will present some resistance when you close the bolt. I would bet the load that Rick is using in his 510 AM you could rechamber fired cases with very little resistance.
A little resistance on the bolt of the 510 AM is alright but if the bolt is hard to close on a fired case, your over pressured.
At times you may see ejector rings on the case head but generally you do not want to be loaded to that level of pressure. 60,000 psi is about max.
If your seeing your primer pockets loosen, your WAY over pressured.
Case life, never seen one wear out to be honest. You may need to anneal your case necks from time to time to prevent neck splits but other then that, lets just say that with this type of weapon, you likely will never shoot 100 rounds of brass enough to ever wear out the brass or the barrel unless your intentionally trying to do this.
If you do feel resistance, your loaded to hot.
With the 510 Allen Magnum, its a little harder then just simply rechambering a fired case because the minimum taper design of this wildcat will present some resistance when you close the bolt. I would bet the load that Rick is using in his 510 AM you could rechamber fired cases with very little resistance.
A little resistance on the bolt of the 510 AM is alright but if the bolt is hard to close on a fired case, your over pressured.
At times you may see ejector rings on the case head but generally you do not want to be loaded to that level of pressure. 60,000 psi is about max.
If your seeing your primer pockets loosen, your WAY over pressured.
Case life, never seen one wear out to be honest. You may need to anneal your case necks from time to time to prevent neck splits but other then that, lets just say that with this type of weapon, you likely will never shoot 100 rounds of brass enough to ever wear out the brass or the barrel unless your intentionally trying to do this.
captacademy
Well-Known Member
Wow! Very impressive rifle!
AlaskaIsGodsCountry
Member
- Joined
- May 8, 2010
- Messages
- 21
This thing just looks sick and wrong! What in the heck would one use this bad boy on other then having the biggest and badest gun on the block. I am impressed!
