.223 rifle purchase advice, 7 twist ?

[njaimo]

Am an inexperienced long-range shooter wannabe, who's been wanting to do this for a long time, and now at 55 (after kids, divorce, a few jobs, etc) seems I am having a chance to learn. My plan so far is to purchase a heavy-barrel rifle in .223, a scope and after learning the shooting basics, start to reload. I picked the .223 as my starter rifle, due to the lower cost of ammo and versatility. I was wondering if some of you could comment back on my choices below, especially if I should consider something else.

I have done a bit of reading in this very informative forum, and elsewhere in the 'net, and am sort of settled in a Savage 12 LRPV with a 7-inch twist so I can eventually work my way to shooting at longer distances with the heavier bullets. One doubt I have is if the 7" twist is going to work. I've read that this twist rate is only good for bullets in the 80gr and above (which I will eventually want to shoot), and that it will over-stabilize smaller bullets. Will this be a "real" problem ? Is there a lower limit of bullet weight I will be able to shoot ? Will I be able to progress from shooting at less than 300 yards, to shooting to 600+ yards later ? I've read that I may not be able to shoo the same bullet weight accurately at 100-300 and 600+, so would have to try a lighter bullet for the smaller distances -- all this due to the 7" twist not stabilizing heavy bullets within 300 yards, and perhaps over-stabilizing lighter bullets...


My other question relates to scopes. If it seems I have sufficient ability to shoot, eventually I would find me a good decent scope, but at the beginning I am hesitant to spend the 1,000+ in a scope, and wondering if there are good enough cheaper alternatives ? Is there a consensus amongst the rest of you on two or three econo-line scopes that I could use to learn that have turrets to dial windage and elevation corrections the sort one needs to do for long range target shooting ? I am in Canada and hear that SWFA scopes are not available here.


Anyways, any comments or suggestions would be greatly appreciated !

 

[Dosh]

Welcome to the forum. Try a medium priced Nikon or Vortex scope and when you upgrade, their popularity will help for resale value. Good luck

 

[Dgd6mm]

Welcome to the site. I shoot a 1-9 and a 1-8 . I shoot 68gr. Hornaday BTHP's in the 1-9. The 1-8 I use 75 gr Amax's for FTR, this I've shot at 100-600 accurately. My 300 yard FTR scores are HM and 600 yards are a couple of points out from there. If I had a 1-7 twist I would not feel indered at all. I believe you could shoot 68's in the 1-7 without issue. I should have asked by now, but how light a bullet are you thinking you'd like to shoot from 100-300? I personally would not care to shoot a lighter bullet, too many loads to develope and I do not believe there would be enough of a payoff in the long run. Another thing is that you will get bored quickly with 100-200 yards. (This is a fine site to belong to,) I frequent Accurate Shooter.com and there is mega info for longrange target shooting for the .223. Not trying to take away anything from this site. My rifles are mostly Savage's, I do own a Remington and a custom. The Savage will serve you fine with the 1-7. It is a buttonrifled barrel so the 1-7 twist will be a little slower, but not much. Look for a good used scope you will save dollars and be ahead of the game in the long-run. A variable would be your best bet, but a straight power would get you started.
If you are willing to spend $1000.00 on a scope, look at the 10-50 Sightron, they can be had for under $1000.00 new.

 

[njaimo]

Many Thanks for the comments ! I'll follow up on the scope suggestions.

About the bullets, seems I read somewhere in my 'net hunt for info, that the longer heavier bullets out of a 7' twist barrel would not be stable early on (as in the first 100-300 yds) and thus have poor precision.

If this was truly an issue, how would I be able to zero my scope at 100 yds if precision would be difficult ?

Cheers!

 

[FearNoWind]

I picked the .223 as my starter rifle... I settled in a Savage 12 LRPV with a 7-inch twist so I can eventually work my way to shooting at longer distances with the heavier bullets. One doubt I have is if the 7" twist is going to work.
My other question relates to scopes ... that have turrets to dial windage and elevation corrections the sort one needs to do for long range target shooting

I started LR hunting with a .223 (Heavy barrel Remington XR100) with a 1:12 twist and it does very well out to 600 yards with the bullets it likes. Unfortunately, your 1:7 is going to require that you be a bit more discriminating in your bullet choices (I wish we had worked with you before you decided on that 1:7 twist)
The 1:7 may stabilize bullets under 70gr but you'll need to try various weights to find out what works. Your 1:7 and the guy who bought the one just before or just after you bought yours won't perform precisely the same.
When you do begin reloading, keep in mind that the .223 (especially the faster twist rifles) need high quality brass and careful technique to perform at their best. Careless handling of reloading processes (seating depth, runout, etc.) and low quality brass often result in disappointing accuracy.
If you want to save money when shopping for a scope, haunt the shooting forums and watch for a good deal. Lots of us buy a scope, use it for a while (or don't use it at all) and end up selling it to try a new one.
My Leupold twelve power fixed with target turrets is a great little varmint scope and I target shoot with it out to 600 yards.

 

[FearNoWind]

M
About the bullets, seems I read somewhere in my 'net hunt for info, that the longer heavier bullets out of a 7" twist barrel would not be stable early on (as in the first 100-300 yds) and thus have poor precision.

I believe you've been reading about the "over stabilization" theory. I suspect the theory has its merits but, as in all similar matters, there are a lot of variables. "Longer heavier bullets" is a relative term. It doesn't answer the question "how much longer", "how much heavier", "at what caliber to twist ratio", "at what muzzle velocity", "with or without the risk of jacket failure at those higher rpms" (which can be a problem with some of the higher twist rate rifles)
IMO, it's better to have too much twist than too little for LR shooting.
Keep in clean and properly maintained and go shoot. Come back with the results and let's see what we can learn. gun)

 

[rcairflr]

Without reading everyone's post, my suggestion would be to not start with a .223. It is not a great round for long distance shooting especially in wind. Get something like a .260 Remington or .308. Easy to reload and great out to 800-1000 yards.
As far as scopes, if you go with a Sightron SIII 6-24 or 8-32 you will never be wanting for a better scope, both can be had for under $1000

 

[Dgd6mm]

What is going to be nice about that Savage is your only a bolthead and a barrel swap away from another caliber. You did say longrange, longrange starts at 800-900-1000 if you go by competition standards. The .223 is a fine cartridge to get you started. I have a .308 Savage FTR I put together for 1000 yard F/Class and the .223 I use out to 600. You'll have to start somewhere. If my .223 had a 30" cutrifled barrel on it I'd take it to 1000 F/Class. FearNoWind is right about the scopes, I bought a new one last year and it is still in the box.

 

[Gene]

In 2003, I bought a new Savage LRPV . 223 1-7" twist to shoot in factory class groundhog matches out to 500yds. This past July, it bit the dust, after 3,300 rounds, all shot with Berger 80 gr. moly coated boat tail bullets. The rifle has had just one scope for all these years - a 36x Weaver that has never left me down.

I have shot some groups at 100 yds. under .1 with it. I have won many factory class matches with it. The 7 twist definitely does stabilize 80 gr. Bergers, but leaves something to be desired with the 90 grainers. With the 80 gr. coated bullets, my best load came about with BR4 primers and 25.5 gr. Varget, jammed .010". Tried a few others, but found nothing better. I have buddies in this game who like the Berger 77 grain BT's in the exact gun. I never got around to trying those.

Beyond 300 yards, even a 5 MPH cross wind plays havoc with these little pills. If you wanna go way out, a .308 or 6mmBR would better serve your needs.

I have never heard of an LRPV that did not shoot well, so I ordered a new one 3 weeks ago. I had to return it to Savage right away, because the loading ramp is incorrect and the meplats strike the barrel shank and will not chamber. I hope it shoots as well as my last LRPV.

 

[HARPERC]

I don't see anything wrong with your choice. I have a Tikka T3 "Scout" they are 1-8" twist. I shoot 55-75 grain bullets without problems. I will say the rifle likes the Hornady Superformance 75 BTHP the best. Doesn't jump right out, but day in day out aggregate is better.

That's a 20" barrel, if you are stretching the distance longer is likely better.

 

[njaimo]

...thanks all for the positive feedback ! Reading Gene's post I assume that indeed there is no issue using the larger bullets at 100 yds for zeroing a scope -- I should have kept a note of where I had found that note about the stability issues so I could post it here.

I have yet to shoot, and my rifle is still on it's way, I am in Canada and it proved a bit hard to find. After some research seems a fixed 10x power SWFA scope at about ($300) would be good as a starter scope, but have not been able to find one yet.

Many thanks again for helping my doubts about the 7 twist. I have a few things to get yet before I do any shooting, but will post a note when I finally do, if I can get it done before our 6 months of winter start .

Cheers !

 

[Kansaswoodguy]

I would go for more magnification than 10x if you can I have two 6-18x and prefer them over my 3-9x's and 3.5-10x the 18x are great for most things. One of my buddy's has a fixed 45x that is great for benchrest but not very good for prairie dogs do to the lack of field of view.