Annealing and huge groups

Turpentine21 said:
When I anneal I spin the case with a drill. When I put the neck in the flame I start counting and watch the oxidation ring as it moves up the case. When it gets to 3/8" above the case shoulder junction I'll remove it from the flame. The biggest thing is getting the flame right. I don't see the neck turning red other than maybe a tiny bit on the case mouth. This has always worked for me. It makes a ton of difference as far as brass prep and I hasn't
done anything that opens up groups.
Is it possible that the the brass in question was over annealed or simply to hot? If so the brass will be very soft and lose its elasticity . Thus effecting neck tension as it not longer will hold a bullet snug.
Here's a condensed summary on the topic from AI. It says it a lot better than I can.
Over-annealing rifle brass (heating it too hot or too long) makes it "dead soft," leading to weak neck tension, poor accuracy, and potential catastrophic failure if the heat reaches the base. Common results include damaged brass that is too soft to hold a bullet properly, while in extreme cases, the case can fail under high pressure. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Effects of Over-Annealing Brass

  • Dead Soft Neck Tension: The brass becomes too soft, losing its elasticity (spring-back), which can cause loose bullets or improper neck tension.
Click to expand...
I do the same annealing technique as you. I suspect the thin brass being the culprit. I once had some 300WM thin necked brass (.009) and annealing ruined them. The mouths crumpled like a ruffles potato chip. Not that the OPs necks were that thin, but I bet they are, or on their way.
 
Turpentine21 said:
When I anneal I spin the case with a drill. When I put the neck in the flame I start counting and watch the oxidation ring as it moves up the case. When it gets to 3/8" above the case shoulder junction I'll remove it from the flame. The biggest thing is getting the flame right. I don't see the neck turning red other than maybe a tiny bit on the case mouth. This has always worked for me. It makes a ton of difference as far as brass prep and I hasn't
done anything that opens up groups.
Is it possible that the the brass in question was over annealed or simply to hot? If so the brass will be very soft and lose its elasticity . Thus effecting neck tension as it not longer will hold a bullet snug.
Here's a condensed summary on the topic from AI. It says it a lot better than I can.
Over-annealing rifle brass (heating it too hot or too long) makes it "dead soft," leading to weak neck tension, poor accuracy, and potential catastrophic failure if the heat reaches the base. Common results include damaged brass that is too soft to hold a bullet properly, while in extreme cases, the case can fail under high pressure. [1, 2, 3, 4]

Effects of Over-Annealing Brass

  • Dead Soft Neck Tension: The brass becomes too soft, losing its elasticity (spring-back), which can cause loose bullets or improper neck tension.
Click to expand...

OK….a question!

I over annealed some brass many years ago….just put it aside!

Is there any good, reliable, repeatable method to "re-harden" the brass…..such as reheating again and then letting it slow cool, much the same as when fired from the rifle? 🤔

You guys are sooooo far advanced beyond my knowledge……I feel pretty Neanderthal in comparison! ☹️ memtb
 
Last edited:
You should anneal before sizing your brass. Need to check the I.D. of the case neck to see what you have set for neck tension after sizing. I kind feel that you expanding the neck to large. Remove the ball and size the brass. Use a mandrel to set neck tension. Check you O.D. of your bullets. Set the necks I.D. 3 to 4 thds under the bullet O.D. You may need a decapping die only. Because you won't have the primer decapping pin in any longer. I started annealing in the late 90's. Stop my neck splits. That was in the days of the old case in a pan of water, and nocking the case over.
Don't bump the shoulder back more than a .001's or 2. You will greatly extend the life of your rifle brass.
The 300 H&H was the first rifle I started to reload for. (1961)
 
BRADMOTO said:
I do the same annealing technique as you. I suspect the thin brass being the culprit. I once had some 300WM thin necked brass (.009) and annealing ruined them. The mouths crumpled like a ruffles potato chip. Not that the OPs necks were that thin, but I bet they are, or on their way.
Click to expand...
It will do it. .009 wall thickness is definitely getting down there.esşes Just my opinion and I've been wrong before.. I'll generally shoot for .0135 to .014 when turning but throat diameter can dictate a different wall thickness to get proper neck expansion and bullet release. I use 30-06 Lapua brass and neck it down to 6.5-06. I anneal after every firing on my cases. I also run some FA 58 and 59 30-06 brass.. I have to neck it down in steps or the shoulder will collapse. I anneal before starting then again before the final stepdown. This works pretty well.s
I also have a bunch of Lake City match brass for my 308. That brass is very tough to work with unless I anneal. I like annealing those and the FA cases. The oxidation ring is very easy to see.
 
Phil Rizzo said:
AMP machines start looking cheaper compared to ruined cases.
There is a reason they analyze your brass beforehand.
It's expensive if you can't share it with others, no question.
But it's consistent, and operates with proper control.
Click to expand...
In thousands of cases I've flame annealed with a Dewalt, I haven't ruined one.
If the brass is thin, it doesn't matter AMP or hillbilly flame method, they'll both ruin a thin case.
AMP is an absolute laughable waste of money for me since I can get seating depths within .0005 and single digit SDs with my drill/torch/socket method. It really isn't rocket surgery.

Once again I'll say, this isn't an annealing issue. There is something wrong with the brass.
 
memtb said:
OK….a question!

I over annealed some brass many years ago….just put it aside!

Is there any good, reliable, repeatable method to "re-harden" the brass…..such as reheating again and then letting it slow cool, much the same as when fired from the rifle? 🤔

You guys are sooooo far advanced beyond my knowledge……I feel pretty Neanderthal in comparison! ☹️ memtb
Click to expand...
Every time you resize your brass, you harden it. That's why you anneal, to soften your overworked hardened brass. So, just run your soft brass through your full length sizing die a few times and it should reharden. You do not have to shoot the brass between multiple resizing events.
 
memtb said:
Withoit

You guys are sooooo far advanced beyond my knowledge……I feel pretty Neanderthal in comparison! ☹️ memtb
Click to expand...

Well that goes without saying!!!🤣

My answer to your question is that I have no clue. But I wonder if brass acts similarly to steel? Back when I was running dozers and fire plows for the state I spent a large amount of time at the shop helping the mechanics. We welded a lot of new spindels on fire plows when the the old ones would get snapped off. Also heated and straitened some spindles that got bent. Every time we did that the older mechanics would either pour oil on it while it was hot or basically paint grease on as soon as welding or heating was done.. They said it was to help harden or increase the temper of the metal. I still do it if I'm welding or heating something to high temps. But I don't know if it truly does what they said it would. This may be something I'll do a little research on.
 
BRADMOTO said:
In thousands of cases I've flame annealed with a Dewalt, I haven't ruined one.
If the brass is thin, it doesn't matter AMP or hillbilly flame method, they'll both ruin a thin case.
AMP is an absolute laughable waste of money for me since I can get seating depths within .0005 and single digit SDs with my drill/torch/socket method. It really isn't rocket surgery.

Once again I'll say, this isn't an annealing issue. There is something wrong with the brass.
Click to expand...
The only time I've ruined any was with older cases that were damaged or whatever. When I first started annealing. I would experiment on these just to learn or practice.
 
Lenny Foffa said:
Hi All, this just happened to me. !! At the 200 yard range Tuesday , shooting the 1949 Win model 70 ,in.300 H and H ! Changed scopes, now using a 4.5X to 14x Leupold ! Shooting Non Annealed cases , I shot three shots into one target ,with an group of.509 at 200 yards , same rifle same load same bench , I fired 7 rounds from the annealed cases and shot a 4 plus inch group ! Necks so soft you could push the bullet deeper with your hand! Neck tension was way too light ! Annealed only to straw color ,never red !! Is this a brass REM. quality issue ,or a case design issue ! No more annealing.300 H and H for me !! Thanks for any advice !!!
Click to expand...
Mr Lenny, what is the neck wall thickness of these cases?
 

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