WeiserBucks
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No need to carry anything. Just check them before hunting.
Berger VLD pencil through Elk in Cold?
- Thread starter tbentz
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Southern 62
Well-Known Member
On a back country hunt I carry it. No I don't put one in the chamber, but in the magazine with all the bouncing on a horse or hiking, it's nice to have if you do a quick check and need it. JMHO.
Thank you all, I really appreciate the advice and shared experience.
I've had penciling with 180gr bergers on elk. The insides are soup, but i'm either getting a small or missing exit hold. . I've never had this issue with deer or other animals.
I haven't seen any issues related to weather with the bullets, but as crazy as it sounds I've only had the issue with elk in Montana..
I believe the thicker hide and fatter animal slows the bleeding down and acts like a sponge. I've recovered animals maybe 50-100 yards away and they arent bleeding externally as much as I'd like or they are but the thick hide is soaking it all up and it's not hitting the ground.
As a comparison, i shot an elk in Oregon in late Oct 2014 and kept a section of hide. I hunted Montana in mid Nov 2014 in -15deg temps. The hide and fat comparison between the two animals was different.
I haven't seen any issues related to weather with the bullets, but as crazy as it sounds I've only had the issue with elk in Montana..
I believe the thicker hide and fatter animal slows the bleeding down and acts like a sponge. I've recovered animals maybe 50-100 yards away and they arent bleeding externally as much as I'd like or they are but the thick hide is soaking it all up and it's not hitting the ground.
As a comparison, i shot an elk in Oregon in late Oct 2014 and kept a section of hide. I hunted Montana in mid Nov 2014 in -15deg temps. The hide and fat comparison between the two animals was different.
laker
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Don't think you are having a penciling issue if insides are soup. You just aren't getting an exit which isn't uncommon for a Berger
lancetkenyon
Well-Known Member
If you are shooting at approximately 2950fps, that bullet is leaving the barrel at approximately 800°F. It is not the cold ambient temps that are causing the issue.
Your sample size of 1 does not show any factual data. "No meat damage at enteance or exit" is not enough to tell the tale. How was the 18"+ between those two holes? How were the internal organs? If that cow died within a few hundred yards, I highly doubt a pencil-through. More likely, part of the bullet exited at a very slow speed and expending most of it's energy inside the animal. All the blood stayed inside the animal.
As for your bull, winter conditions of thick absorbant hair, thick layers of fat, and the muscle mass can close off an entrance hole from a bullet. And more than likely, there was not an exit hole. Hense, no blood. I am not sure how youbcould have seen impact at an exact location on the elk from 300 yards away, but let's say your are correct. I had a buddy who shot a bull with his 7RM pushing a 168 HVLD at 3050fps MV, and the shot was at approximately 75 yards. I watched the shot, heard the "whop", watched the bull hunch and gather himself and bolt off. I tracked that bull in the fresh snow for 3.5 miles. One drop of blood in the entire tracking job. Found where he bedded down about 1/2 mile, but apparently I jumped him. Anout 2 hours later, I heard another shot fairly close. 3.5 miles later, I found some guys over the bull. They said he was just standing there, head down when they spotted him from 200 yards and shot him. I told them congrats and the story, and asked if I could watch while they cleaned it. Two bullet holes going in within about 6" of each other. No exits from either. Only blood on the ground is when they opened him up. It was a kiddie pool inside of that bull through. Never found either bullet inside.
Your sample size of 1 does not show any factual data. "No meat damage at enteance or exit" is not enough to tell the tale. How was the 18"+ between those two holes? How were the internal organs? If that cow died within a few hundred yards, I highly doubt a pencil-through. More likely, part of the bullet exited at a very slow speed and expending most of it's energy inside the animal. All the blood stayed inside the animal.
As for your bull, winter conditions of thick absorbant hair, thick layers of fat, and the muscle mass can close off an entrance hole from a bullet. And more than likely, there was not an exit hole. Hense, no blood. I am not sure how youbcould have seen impact at an exact location on the elk from 300 yards away, but let's say your are correct. I had a buddy who shot a bull with his 7RM pushing a 168 HVLD at 3050fps MV, and the shot was at approximately 75 yards. I watched the shot, heard the "whop", watched the bull hunch and gather himself and bolt off. I tracked that bull in the fresh snow for 3.5 miles. One drop of blood in the entire tracking job. Found where he bedded down about 1/2 mile, but apparently I jumped him. Anout 2 hours later, I heard another shot fairly close. 3.5 miles later, I found some guys over the bull. They said he was just standing there, head down when they spotted him from 200 yards and shot him. I told them congrats and the story, and asked if I could watch while they cleaned it. Two bullet holes going in within about 6" of each other. No exits from either. Only blood on the ground is when they opened him up. It was a kiddie pool inside of that bull through. Never found either bullet inside.
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I've had bullets pencil through animals before. The animal still dies. I fail to see how you can pass a bullet through both lungs, and have it live. I've heard stories of guys that mindlessly noc'd a field point instead of their broadhead... and stuffed a field point through both lungs with a bow. Same result... deer died. Lungs fill with blood, and they asphyxiate or simply die from internal blood loss.
Tracking is a massive problem, as there isn't much for blood to get out. However, they die all the same.
When I hear stories like the one described, I can't help but think the shooter simply missed the mark. This isn't mean to be a slight, but as a mentor of shooters, even in a target situation, a huge percentage of shooters are unable to properly call their trace/misses. Even their hits, they often call in the wrong location on the target.
Lungs are a very fragile organ. Very soft tissue. It doesn't take much damage to cause them to stop functioning properly. Lungs with holes through them don't work well, regardless of how the hole gets there. I submit that bullets penciling through is less of a problem than proper shot placement.
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Tracking is a massive problem, as there isn't much for blood to get out. However, they die all the same.
When I hear stories like the one described, I can't help but think the shooter simply missed the mark. This isn't mean to be a slight, but as a mentor of shooters, even in a target situation, a huge percentage of shooters are unable to properly call their trace/misses. Even their hits, they often call in the wrong location on the target.
Lungs are a very fragile organ. Very soft tissue. It doesn't take much damage to cause them to stop functioning properly. Lungs with holes through them don't work well, regardless of how the hole gets there. I submit that bullets penciling through is less of a problem than proper shot placement.
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Agreed! They do not need an exit wound to be effective, and one of the reasons I use them as it reduces the risk of hitting anything behind the target that you do not intend to shoot.
BillLarson
Well-Known Member
GOOD INFO HERE.....!!!
I normally have the opposite problem with Berger; they go in and grenade and do not give an exit.
Hand Skills
Well-Known Member
It seems to me you might be missing the point here Orkan.
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everything drops to zero.
I can guarantee that the Elk will die even if you miss completely...
It is just a matter of time...
How many miles have you put on tracking wounded ungulates?
I've put on a few, and its one of my least favorite things to do.
In my experience, the ending is never good. Even when conditions are favorable and the animal is recovered, it can be a monumental effort getting the animal out of the hole they died in and back to the truck. Due to adrenaline and stress on the animal, meat quality is typically poor...
Dont get me wrong, i agree with your assertion that shot placement is a prime factor, but if it was the only factor we would all be hunting with FMJ's.
When it comes to quick kills, bullet performance is a factor. Period.
I hunt a lot in temps below 0F, and I do see less blood in the cold. As Lance pointed out, it's unlikely the bullet is effected by the cold - not only is the bullet heated by friction in its path down the bore, but copper and lead do not get brittle like some other metals do in the cold (look up DBTT - ductile to brittle temperature transition - this is well understood in materials engineering)
Hunting in -20C is not uncommon for me. Coldest kill I have is a wolf right around -40C.
I think there might be a physiological effect where wounds have a tendency to seal up faster and leak less in the cold. Maybe there is more tension on the skin to make hair bushier and thicker? Maybe blood freezes quickly as it exits? Maybe blood is a little more viscous due to cold temps? I don't know...
Yes, is unfortunate that some blame their failures on bullet performance without evidence, but I don't see that happening in this thread.
The issue of clogged hollow points causing bergers to fail to expand is well known. I always check tips. One member here has a lot of experience with Berger's and he just blows across the tips. If they dont sound right, he marks them for practice.
Haven't tried that method myself, but might give it a shot going forward. Seems easy enough, especially dealing with pocket lint or dropped ammo in the field.
Just my thoughts - not trying to stir the pot, sorry for the ramble
Just my thoughts,
Stopped hunting with Bergers several years ago. Not because of poor performance on game but pain to get to shoot and still fit in magazine plus availability at the time. I can get hammers here in three days. And they open up.
bigngreen
Well-Known Member
Ya, temp isn't going to change the bullet function. Punched a few MT elk in below zero temps with the 180's and not an issue. What many think these days is a pencil are the bullet opening inside the core and messing that up then the base or core just popping through the off side. A true pencil is so rare, in our groups we have verified one pencil and it was a 210 through the back of the ribs of doe, she still only made it a couple hundred hards before I ran her down and dispatched her. One in hundreds!!
One reason I changed to Bergers years ago was the no meat damage in and none out but when you open them up and it utter wreckage BUT you gotta open them up, gutless method don't get it!!
One reason I changed to Bergers years ago was the no meat damage in and none out but when you open them up and it utter wreckage BUT you gotta open them up, gutless method don't get it!!
Thanks this is super helpful to me. I'm certain the bull died eventually, and clearly I do not know where. I tracked for two days as long as I could, never found a body, but with 7 elk in the bachelor herd, it's a lot of trying to figure out who went where. I lost a poorly shot cow to a barnes ttsx years ago, and I was hoping to never experience that again. I never considered the thicker fat/hide combined with the lung shot already not producing much in the way of blood trail.
Sounds like there's enough support for the drill bit here that I'm going to give it another shot.
