9mm side arm

Teri Anne said:
Your point about LEO not all being able to shoot bulls eyes every time but the chances of them being able to hit, at least in the vicinity of where they want to is a lot more commonplace than the average concealed carry person. Here in Wisconsin it is possible to get a concealed carry license without ever having to take a shot or handle a pistol, and unfortunately many take advantage of this and carry something that they don't know how to use. Talk about being dangerous.

The same goes for the average, note the word average hunter. They carry a handgun as a backup that they can only, and if that marginally shoot and not all that accurately, after all they are hunting with a powerful rifle.

Now it is a given that when the bear, which is a big target is so close that even the worst handgun shot in the state shoots that it's hard to miss, if that bullet doesn't find a good home that handgun was as useless as the big hunting knife they probably didn't carry as a last ditch resort. As I think of it they would probably have better luck with the knife but in either case would be successfully mauled by the bear.

I am a firearms and hunter safety instructor. I help out people sighting in. Some don't want help, they think they know what they are doing yet can't put even one round into a 24 inch paper sighting in target at 100 yards. Of course they don't want any help, especially from a woman. Once several years ago a group of 4 came to the range with a refrigerator box, set it up at 100 yards and took turns shooting at it. Of the 80 rounds shot by four hunters only 6 hit the refrigerator carton and they were satisfied with that. Gentlemen, while this may not be indicative of the people frequenting this web site, but there are more of them out there in the woods than you probably care to think about. Be Safe my friends, Be safe out there.
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I'm sure many hunters who carry pistols while hunting shoot their pistols often and know how to use them. Just because thery are carrying a rifle doesn't mean the don't know how to use a pistol. I'd say a very small amount of them don't know how not the average.
Here you can conseal or open carry with no permit. The "average" person here probably has a different mindset than a lot of states. A non resident can even open carry here. I got a CCW only because it's good in 37 states. You can probably figure out which ones don't honer it.... Michigan even does. Wisconsin? Nope. I only hunt in red states anyway. All I have to do is show my hunting license to get one. With a CCW in Wy. you don't have to do a background check when purchasing a gun.
 
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WYO300RUM said:
I'm sure many hunters who carry pistols while hunting shoot their pistols often and know how to use them. Just because thery are carrying a rifle doesn't mean the don't know how to use a pistol. I'd say a very small amount of them don't know how not the average.
Here you can conseal or open carry with no permit. The "average" person here probably has a different mindset than a lot of states. A non resident can even open carry here. I got a CCW only because it's good in 37 states. You can probably figure out which ones don't honer it.... Michigan even does. Wisconsin? Nope. I only hunt in red states anyway. All I had to do is show my hunting license to get one. With a CCW in Wy. you don't have to do a background check when purchasing a gun.
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Maybe dealing with symantics here but knowing how to shoot a pistol and being able to shoot accurately, especially under pressure are two different things. I spend a lot of time at my local range as a RSO and instructor. There are many times when I have had to eject unsafe handgun shooters from the range. Most were irate about it. My comment to them is, "I have the club president on speed dial. Would you like to talk to him and explain why you are being asked to leave.

About 75% of the pistol shooters are very active at turning ammo into noise and occasionally and accidentally hitting the paper plates that they prefer for target practice. Paper plates are actually quite useful as targets, but one still has to hit the plate. Of course at 20 feet or less with an angry bear coming at you is not the time or place to figure out how good or bad you are with a handgun. Then again the closer the bear gets the harder it is to miss.

So again knowing how to use them but being able to actually shoot them effectively are two different things, especially under pressure.
 
Teri Anne said:
Maybe dealing with symantics here but knowing how to shoot a pistol and being able to shoot accurately, especially under pressure are two different things. I spend a lot of time at my local range as a RSO and instructor. There are many times when I have had to eject unsafe handgun shooters from the range. Most were irate about it. My comment to them is, "I have the club president on speed dial. Would you like to talk to him and explain why you are being asked to leave.

About 75% of the pistol shooters are very active at turning ammo into noise and occasionally and accidentally hitting the paper plates that they prefer for target practice. Paper plates are actually quite useful as targets, but one still has to hit the plate. Of course at 20 feet or less with an angry bear coming at you is not the time or place to figure out how good or bad you are with a handgun. Then again the closer the bear gets the harder it is to miss.

So again knowing how to use them but being able to actually shoot them effectively are two different things, especially under pressure.
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All in Wisconsin. I'm not into writing novels but I've instructed plenty in my life. I've been a life member of NRA for 30 plus years and GOA. I don't need to be certified to be a range officer. Means nothing to me. I can't attest to your estimated statistics. I'm sorry . Not actual fact or data. Not doubting yours though ... You may have more years on me but I don't know about experience. You're welcome to come to Wyoming anytime with your .357. I'm sure you would be more compidant with it than anything more powerful. Oh, and I spend a lot of my time at my gun range and local gun range , so what does that matter ? Makes me no expert but hey, we shoot a lot of pistols here 😉👍🏼
 
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WYO300RUM said:
All in Wisconsin. I'm not into writing novels but I've instructed plenty in my life. I can't attest to your estimated statistics. I'm sorry . Not actual fact or data. Not doubting yours though ... You may have more years on me but I don't know about experience. You're welcome to come to Wyoming anytime with your .357. I'm sure you would be more compidant with it than anything more powerful. Oh, and I spend a lot of my time at my gun range and local gun range , so what does that matter ? Makes me no expert but hey, we shoot a lot of pistols here 😉👍🏼
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Different places, different clientele. I have visited Wyoming. I will admit a long time ago and not for hunting or shooting. Lifestyles are different, people are different throughout the country. Wisconsin and Wyoming share a hunting heritage, but have different animals to hunt. We have black bears, If I remember correctly you may have a few Griz. We have deer and a very limited Elk herd, You have Elk as well as deer. We have Wolves, packs growing and causing issues that the last court decree says are endangered so unable to cull the packs. Come to Wisconsin and take a look and tell me they are endangered? If I remember correctly and correct me if I am wrong, you don't have Wolves decimating the deer, elk and hunting dogs out in the woods.
Years mean something, but experience means a lot too. Everyone has different experiences and experience levels. I have shot larger handguns, 44 mags, 454 casuls and S&W 500's. Can I shoot them, and accurately for sure for one or two shots after that the accuracy declines. I am pretty sure it does for everybody, but I might be wrong. Some may be hardened enough to shoot a box of the heavy hitters in one sitting, but that someone would not be me. Do I enjoy shooting them, Not a chance. Am I as good with them as I am with my Model 19, not anywhere close. We each have our own thing, for me I can out shoot most with a .357 revolver, a Colt Gold Cup and as I get to know it better a M17. Of all three I much prefer the revolver. Not as many rounds, but if you make the rounds count the count of rounds doesn't much matter. The target shown here was shot was last week, practice at the local range with the Model 19 shooting rapid fire, 5 rounds in 10 seconds or less single action at 50 feet. The picture was the best of the series, but the entire series wasn't too shabby. To me needs improvement, but not a lot of people shoot pistols much less revolvers well here.
 

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Teri Anne said:
Different places, different clientele. I have visited Wyoming. I will admit a long time ago and not for hunting or shooting. Lifestyles are different, people are different throughout the country. Wisconsin and Wyoming share a hunting heritage, but have different animals to hunt. We have black bears, If I remember correctly you may have a few Griz. We have deer and a very limited Elk herd, You have Elk as well as deer. We have Wolves, packs growing and causing issues that the last court decree says are endangered so unable to cull the packs. Come to Wisconsin and take a look and tell me they are endangered? If I remember correctly and correct me if I am wrong, you don't have Wolves decimating the deer, elk and hunting dogs out in the woods.
Years mean something, but experience means a lot too. Everyone has different experiences and experience levels. I have shot larger handguns, 44 mags, 454 casuls and S&W 500's. Can I shoot them, and accurately for sure for one or two shots after that the accuracy declines. I am pretty sure it does for everybody, but I might be wrong. Some may be hardened enough to shoot a box of the heavy hitters in one sitting, but that someone would not be me. Do I enjoy shooting them, Not a chance. Am I as good with them as I am with my Model 19, not anywhere close. We each have our own thing, for me I can out shoot most with a .357 revolver, a Colt Gold Cup and as I get to know it better a M17. Of all three I much prefer the revolver. Not as many rounds, but if you make the rounds count the count of rounds doesn't much matter. The target shown here was shot was last week, practice at the local range with the Model 19 shooting rapid fire, 5 rounds in 10 seconds or less single action at 50 feet. The picture was the best of the series, but the entire series wasn't too shabby. To me needs improvement, but not a lot of people shoot pistols much less revolvers well here.
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Yeah we have a few grizzlies. Lol ! Over 760 in the Yellowstone eco system alone. Many more outside of it. I see them often. Oh and we have wolves ! And they didn't stay inside Yellowstone.... They do a number on the elk. I rarely see elk in Yellowstone anymore. Idaho elk herds in some areas have been hammered by wolves I've seen them also here. I live 52 mi. from East gate of Yellowstone. In Wy., Mt. and Id. you can shoot wolves in the season. If they are out of the boundries like on BLM you can shoot them anytime. I buy a couple tags every year. They are cheap and get a black bear and Mtn. lion tag also. I saw a big boar blackie last week. Wasn't rifle season yet. He came out of the trees by the river running out into a field they cutting right towards me. I'm not sure why. There's a sow with two cubs hanging around there also. The F&G are trapping grizzlies in same area and moving them. Maybe he got let out of a trap ? I've read where the wolves are killing a lot deer there. Wait until they knock your elk herd down. Then they might let you kill a few. I think I read they had a short wolf season last year there.
 
Teri, while much of what you say is true…..you're a bit off with your Wyoming animal stats.

Some areas of Wyoming we are blessed with a fairly high concentration of both wolves and grizzly.….and "not" just in the park! Again, in some areas, residents have and continue to lose dogs to wolves. If we used dogs for hunting, other than for lion hunting, I suspect we would lose a lot more dogs to wolves. The majority of lion hunting (dogs involved) are in areas that area not typical wolf habitat!

There are some areas (admittedly small areas) of Wyoming where a day out hunting will usually involve seeing a grizzly……wolves not so much as they are much more secretive and are primarily nocturna!
When I was sheep hunting about 10 years ago…..I saw more grizzlies than sheep! We had just parked our camper (home base for our hunts), went for an afternoon drive just to observe the overall "lay of the land" and had our first encounter. Just a sign of things to come!

To further add to the 9 mm handgun conversation…..nothing, not even the largest rifle cartridge typically used in North America will immediately incapacitate a bear unless it involves a CNS strike! That said, a larger bore, heavy, well constructed bullet placed through the vitals offers a considerable higher percentage of killing (not stopping) than an equally placed bullet of lower caliber, weight and probably less muzzle velocity!

Thanks, but I'll continue to advocate a handgun with bore of at least .40 caliber…..preferably above .45 caliber, if the likelihood of a grizzly encounter is involved!

Spend a week or so in the Thorofare, Sunshine Basin, or north of Dubois…..and you may reconsider your attempt to validate the 9 mm handgun as a potential back-up handgun in bear country……any bear country! You may also have a revelation pertaining to the number of wolves and grizzlies that we have! memtb
 
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And I think here in N/W Wyoming is grizzly capital ! The problem is that grizzlies haven't been hunted since 1970 here. They have no fear of humans. We look like food to them like any other animal. Hunters and hikers a killed by grizzlies every year. A few already this year. And not just in Yellowstone. Look it up. Deer are just Scooby snacks to wolves. They go after the elk, moose and even buffalo. Grizzley go after all also. Fawning season for elk and deer is their favorite. That goes for black bears also. You won't find many black bear in areas where there are grizzles. Any you can figure out why . I have no hate for grizzles at all. Wolves.... F&G kills 40 to 50 grizzlies a year. That's ok with the anti's because hunters didn't shoot them. No revenue for the F&G but all paid for with taxpayer dollars . Same problem in Ca. with mountain lions banned from hunted since 1992. No fear of humans. Hikers killed. The G&F there has killed up to 200 lions a year. Most anti's don't know that or that their taxpayer money goes to pay the state trappers. I have stories about that situation but I've posted it on other threads. Same with Grizzlies and pistols 🙄 Anyway, look into the "few" grizzles here for me.
memtb,
I saw a griz in Sunlight basin earlier this year. Right by the campground. A game warden showed up but the bear had moved on. There are griz all over North Fork and South fork here. They're not remote. I can relate to your bighorn hunt. Packing out deer/elk let alone cutting one up gives me the creeps. That's when most hunters/hikers get attacked or when the bear is on a kill. Or... A sow with cubs. I won't tell any bear stories I promise. 😉
 
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Rum, we were camped on the left side of the road…..just before the junction of Little Sunlight and Sunlight. We had just crossed Little Sunlight…..the griz was silhouetted on the ridge as we were coming out of Little Sunlight!

It sure kept you high alert when backpacked in/spike camped! 😁 memtb
 
memtb said:
Rum, we were camped on the left side of the road…..just before the junction of Little Sunlight and Sunlight. We had just crossed Little Sunlight…..the griz was silhouetted on the ridge as we were coming out of Little Sunlight!

It sure kept you high alert when backpacked in/spike camped! 😁 memtb
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And it probably wasn't the only one in the vacinity ! 😳😁
 
Last year I was backpacking up Deer Creek trail head from South Fork (Shoshone River). I had about half mile of switchbacks. I was seeing bear tracks all over. Some had little cub tracks with them. Scat all over. Some dark bloody and green looking like eating guts. I got to top where it just winds along the side of mtns. Then goes in to Thorofare. On my right was STEEP side of Mtn. I couldn't of got up it. To my left straight down half mile to Deer Creek. Almost like a cliff. I don't think you could walk down and it would drop off anyway. The trail is maybe 4 ft. wide. Bear tracks going up and down it. I went about a half mile and got the grizz creeps. Got them 3 times last year. I thought if a bear and I met on this trail it's not going to go well for one of us and I don't want it to be me. I turned back and headed down trail to truck. When I got there the F&G had put up a yellow beware bear sign. Said dead horse 1 mile up trail. 😳 I bet I was close to it and very glad I didn't see it. Probably a grizz lying on top of it. 2 years ago , another story. I told it here once. I got the grizz creeps. I just glad I had my male Chesapeake with me. He's my ears. That day is when I decided I'll never hunt without a pistol again. The North Fork is more heavily wooded. Way more bears. Funny, two days later I ran into the guy I bought an English Lab pup from. He was selling a couple pistols. He had a brand new Glock 20 10mm . I said I'll take that one thank you ! I know, I promised no stories 🙄😉
 
memtb said:
Teri, while much of what you say is true…..you're a bit off with your Wyoming animal stats.

Some areas of Wyoming we are blessed with a fairly high concentration of both wolves and grizzly.….and "not" just in the park! Again, in some areas, residents have and continue to lose dogs to wolves. If we used dogs for hunting, other than for lion hunting, I suspect we would lose a lot more dogs to wolves. The majority of lion hunting (dogs involved) are in areas that area not typical wolf habitat!

There are some areas (admittedly small areas) of Wyoming where a day out hunting will usually involve seeing a grizzly……wolves not so much as they are much more secretive and are primarily nocturna!
When I was sheep hunting about 10 years ago…..I saw more grizzlies than sheep! We had just parked our camper (home base for our hunts), went for an afternoon drive just to observe the overall "lay of the land" and had our first encounter. Just a sign of things to come!

To further add to the 9 mm handgun conversation…..nothing, not even the largest rifle cartridge typically used in North America will immediately incapacitate a bear unless it involves a CNS strike! That said, a larger bore, heavy, well constructed bullet placed through the vitals offers a considerable higher percentage of killing (not stopping) than an equally placed bullet of lower caliber, weight and probably less muzzle velocity!

Thanks, but I'll continue to advocate a handgun with bore of at least .40 caliber…..preferably above .45 caliber, if the likelihood of a grizzly encounter is involved!

Spend a week or so in the Thorofare, Sunshine Basin, or north of Dubois…..and you may reconsider your attempt to validate the 9 mm handgun as a potential back-up handgun in bear country……any bear country! You may also have a revelation pertaining to the number of wolves and grizzlies that we have! memtb
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As I mentioned the only time I was in Wyoming was many years ago and it was not for hunting. As for the comment about the 9mm being adequate for bear, I don't think that I have ever said that. Personally when in bear country here in Wisconsin without a rifle I carry a Smith & Wesson Model 19, .357 magnum with Buffalo Bore ammo. Yes, 9MM and even .22 LR have been used successfully on naughty bears with some success. I don't know if you looked at the ammoland.com article about handgun or pistol defense against Black Bear attacks. but you would not catch me out in bear or even Wolf areas with anything less that the .357
 
WYO300RUM said:
www.ktvh.com

Bird hunter injured by grizzly bear east of Choteau

A 51-year old bird hunter was injured by a grizzly bear in Teton County on Tuesday, October 11, 2022.
www.ktvh.com www.ktvh.com
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It seems that Washington hunters have bad luck with bears! Over the years, we've had 2 Washington hunters injured by grizzlies while we were hunting nearby. One was merely run over by a grizzly escaping the area. ….the hunter was in the trail that as the bears chosen escape path. The other was pretty severely injured by a sow! memtb
 

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