Done with 215 Bergers

I have used the 215 on 3-4 animals. I liked the 215 performance better than the 210 VLD. Had some trauma on the entry side of caribou ribs that was surprising. But not a lot of meat to be damaged on a ribcage. My 215s all expanded, but by then I'd already meplat uniformed and countersunk the tips with Kevin Cram's tools.
I've shot game with 168gr .284 VLDs, 210gr .308 VLDs, the 215gr .308 Hybids, and the 300gr .338 OTMs.
Simply had too many disappointments in the first 15 animals to continue any further with them. Some didn't expand, some grenaded with shallow penetration.
After meplat uniforming and countersinking all the tips, I think mine all expand now. But I'm only comfortable using them on completely broadside shots thru the middle of the ribcage.

My lathe-turned monolithic copper bullets work just as well as the Bergers on the broadside rib shots, and much better than the Bergers on all the other shot profiles I experience, from point blank, out to 800-900yds, which is about as far as I shoot. No problems getting 1/2moa accuracy, which is all I require.

So why limit my shot opportunities, when the perfect broadside shot profile doesn't always present?

Anyhow, that's a summary of how I ended up where I am. The one good thing about my Berger experiences is they caused me to move on to copper monolithics. Been very happy with them the past 4 years. Doesn't mean they're best for anyone other than me. Others experiences are just that. If they lead them to a different endpoint and conclusion - fine.

If a guys gonna concentrate on shots past 1000yds, the Bergers may be the good selection. Hard for copper monolithics to compete with the lead core jacketed bullets past 1000yds.

I've shot large game animals with bullets for more than 45yrs. Seen quite a few different bullets used, by myself and others. The limited meat damage from my lathe-turned copper bullets is almost dumbfounding. Just about has to be seen to be believed. Over the past 4 years, they've also proven deadly - lethal. Wish they'd been available for my use years ago.
.
The lathe-turned copper monolithic bullets are a better long range bullet than the Barnes copper bullets, in my experiences. Tighter tolerance control during manufacture leads to a bit better consistency/accuracy, and higher BC values help a guy hit at longer yardage. I've used Barnes bullets and have some on my shelves. Use them for closer range encounters, but don't develop long range loads with them.
 
Thanks Phorwath for that well thought out and experience based response. I noted that you stated the 215's all expanded (with mods) but I gather other choices are better all round for you. That makes sense.
I do wonder if the hunter of decent means may be happy with the Terminal Ascent bullet, it has a high BC but not the highest but good for the 700-800 yd. shooting you mention and most people would be inside of.
 
The Trophy Bonded Bear Claw is one of my all-time favorites for terminal performance on really large game, dangerous or otherwise. I've loaded these bullets for bear defense and camp defense bullets for close to 20 years.
The original TBBCs were manufactured by Jack Carter in Texas, and came in these boxes (see photo). Then Speer bought the rights to manufacture them. Now Federal. I've not purchased any of the tipped versions of the Trophy Bonded bullets, but if their terminal performance on game is similar to the prior non-tipped bullets, they should perform superbly.

My use of the bullets has been shorter range on brown bear, moose, and caribou. Never had a disappointment. Only impressed. The prior versions of these bullets were not noted for target-equivalent accuracy. I can imagine it's difficult to maintain perfect rotational balance in the copper cavity section of the bullets with the bonded lead core. They shot fine for my uses, but I never used them past 300yds. If Federal's Terminal Ascent version of these bullets provide 1/2moa accuracy, they'd have potential to be great performers, both up close and far off.

This photo shows perhaps the best performing TBBC I've recovered from an animal. This one was recovered from the offside shoulder of a bull moose this past September.
Left to Right...
1) 160gr .284 bullet fired from a 7mm Rem Mag. Impact velocity maybe 2,650fps. 97.6% weight retention. Maximum expanded diameter of 0.646", or 2.3 times expansion. Hard to create a lot of lead shard infested meat when the bullet retains 97.6% of its original weight.
2) 160gr .284 bullet - unfired TBBC.
3) 200gr .308 bullet - unfired TBBC.

Killed brown bear with the original 225gr .338 TBBCs, and they have been devastating on the big bears, even after their adrenalin rush hits overdrive. One 10 1/2 footer was dead when he hit the ground, and that bullet was simply placed in the middle of the ribs on a broadside shot profile. The large frontal expansion shocked him to the ground, lifeless.

Been tempted to purchase some of the tipped Federal Terminal Ascent bullets, but I'm so content with my current bullets, at close and long range, that I haven't... so far...

2020 Moose 97.6% Weight Retention.jpg
 
I took a small bull elk yesterday with a 215. He was broadside at 500YDS, partially obscured by alders. It was a little more hurried than I would like it to be but I made a good shot. I did not hear the hit but he ran downhill while the other bull he was with ran uphill. Made a long walk up to where he was standing and had good blood, I double lunged him high. He went about 50YDS but unfortunately that 50 YDS was into some nasty stuff.

His organs were indiscernible, complete jelly, which I was kind of bummed about because I thought I might get the heart to eat. The exit wound was a little far back like something deflected but was decent size maybe 2" diameter. I was apprehensive as I walked up to where he was, partially because of this thread and others like it and I didn't see him go down. After seeing the damage to literally everything that makes a body work, it was shocking that he was able to take a single step but that is elk. Zero meat damage.

Sorry no good pics. He died in a pretty bad spot and just working on him was a chore, it took the whole day for two of us to pack him out.
 
treillw said:
I might as well be bringing up politics, but here it goes. I've been shooting the 215 Bergers out of my 300 win since 2017. Developed a great load shooting sub half minute at 2705 fps.

2017:
  • Wife shot a cow at 260 yards. Didn't look for a blood trail because we could see the animal laying 40 yards away. Bullet worked. Wonderful.
2018:
  • I shot at a cow. 300ish yards, poor rest, rushed/hectic shot. My wife, brother and I looked for about 1.5 hours. Couldn't find a drop of blood. No hair. Nothing. Three people looking all over for that long, we swore I missed. My other brother had a tag and ran off after the herd after my shot. He came back and asked if we found blood. No, we said. I guess I missed. He said alright. Let's head back to the truck. He started walking and we all followed closely behind. After a couple hundred yards he stepped to the side to reveal my dead elk laying there. He followed that elks tracks the whole way back to where we stood looking for blood and said that he didn't see a single drop. Granted this one is my fault; I hit it in the guts. I would still hope to see some sign of a hit.
  • The next day my wife shot at a cow at 460 yards. She practices at this range all the time and I know she can make the shot. She doesn't shoot if she's not comfortable and confident. No sign at all of a hit. The four of us looked for half the day and couldn't find anything. She definitely could have missed, but after the previous day's display I would not be surprised at all if she hit it.
  • Couple of weeks later I shot a cow at 260 yards. Ended up breaking the front shoulder and it only went 10 yards.
2019:
  • I shot a bull at 40 yards. It ran maybe 70 yards with blood spewing everywhere and died. Happy
  • My wife shot a bull at 260 yards and dropped it in it's tracks. Happy.
2020:
  • This spring I shot a beautiful big color phased bear. 260 yards, prone, solid as a rock - I could hit a baseball with the gun at that range. The bear was over a hill and disappeared after the shot. It looked like I hit it in the scope. Walked up to it swearing I would find a beautiful dead bear. Nothing. No hair. No blood. Nothing. Looked all over. Nothing. Two weeks later I found a pretty monstrous (in my book) black bear skull in the same area. My bear? I'll never know for certain. Sickening.
  • Monday I shot a bull. Thought it was dead. Walked up to it and it stood up. I shot it at ~30 yards broadside right in the boiler room. It flinched and kept standing. I shot it again, right in the boiler room. It took a couple steps and fell. I gave it 30 seconds and it was still pretty with it, so I shot it in the head. Still moving. Shot it in the head again and it finally faded slowly.
The first shot was at about 100 yards. None of the shots, except one head shot, had exit wounds. I found one copper jacket laying against the far side ribcage. The autopsy revealed that the internal organs were essentially fully intact. I saw no signs of the one "boiler room" shot. The other one, I saw a hole the size of my pointer finger through the lungs. I could barely stick my finger through the hole. The bullet didn't exit the far side of the animal, but penciled through the lungs - I would have expected to find a pencil exit.

I guess I'm starting to see why "not suitable for hunting" is stamped onto the box.

Unless somebody can show me what I'm doing wrong here, I'm pretty sure I'm done with the 215 hybrid. I might try the 205 Elite Hunters out. I'm also open to other suggestions.
Click to expand...


Looks like everything you shot is sub 500 yards, honestly you'd be doing well to be using the 200 Sierra BT, 180 NBT, 200 Part or Accu. This stuff is only rocket science if we choose to make it so....:)

Best of luck to you, but if it were me I'd be for looking at a more traditional design of bullet.
 
RDRNNR268 said:
Use Sierra and end all the ******** fancy name crap. Speer also. All you guys want to do is brag at the coffee shop about you expensive bullet. 50 years of experience speaking on Elk, Deer, and big bear.
Click to expand...
Copy that. I feel the same using Barnes TSX and TTSX. To this date never lost nor had to track any animals.
 
Shoot the Berger Hunter Classics 168gr out of my 7rem mag. Killed 3 bulls with them, from 80 to 560 yards. First bull dropped, found the bullet in the hide sorry didn't weigh it. Second bull 150 yards, dropped but got back up wobbling, got a second and went back down. No blood/exits/recovered bullet. Third bull at 560 yards went up the hill and laid down. Spooked him on my way over, he tumbled down and found him searching the hill. NO blood, but exited through the right shoulder. Have since went with a 300 rum and 210 ABLR for my elk load. Big bad medicine for one of the toughest critters out there. And speaking of tough critters, walking out in the dark in Griz country I feel slightly better with non fragging bullets. Does anybody have some terminal ballistics of Bergers vs big bears? Personally I will be using bonded/mono bullets but Bergers sure do fly nice!
 
I use 210 in a 300 win mag and every thing I have shot died on impact. I'm not sure what you will be gaining switching. Bergers are awesome bullets everyone hates to loose animals but it does happen. If you not confident in your set up you should change
 
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