Wind and Uphill/Downhill Shots

[BrentM]

Excellent. Litz owns AB, Shooter was an offshoot that worked with Litz... AB is more up to date. There are two ballistic solvers, or engines, TRASOL uses, can't remember his name, but he's out of Argentina and owns Cold Bore, and then the other old school engine that Litz uses.

Most real hunters won't need the uphill downhill info because modern range finders calculate for it giving you a true range to target, which you just adjust for wind based on that number

If you use a LRF shoot to range it will not be accurate. LRF use a cosine solver to generate the horizontal distance equivalent range to the target. Ballistics solvers do not use this data. Litz addresses this is one of the books as well. The ballistic apps use TOF calculation to the target for the correction. The results are considerably different. An example would be a 20degree slope at 1750 yards. Horizontal distance to the target is 1645. (1750x.94=1645). Depending on the ballistics of your ammo that 105 yard difference at that range is significant. For one of my rifles it is 3.4 moa or almost 60".

 

[waveslayer]

If you use a LRF shoot to range it will not be accurate. LRF use a cosine solver to generate the horizontal distance equivalent range to the target. Ballistics solvers do not use this data. Litz addresses this is one of the books as well. The ballistic apps use TOF calculation to the target for the correction. The results are considerably different. An example would be a 20degree slope at 1750 yards. Horizontal distance to the target is 1645. (1750x.94=1645). Depending on the ballistics of your ammo that 105 yard difference at that range is significant. For one of my rifles it is 3.4 moa or almost 60".

I'm sorry but you are wrong. Ballistic solvers will account for this, hence my first post. LRF that are more modern will give you a true distance factoring in angle (degrees). In fact download TRASOL and enter 1000 yards , change the degree and your DOPE will change.... so in fact they do calculate it. So does Shooter, AB and 4DOF

 

[BrentM]

I'm sorry but you are wrong. Ballistic solvers will account for this, hence my first post. LRF that are more modern will give you a true distance factoring in angle (degrees). In fact download TRASOL and enter 1000 yards , change the degree and your DOPE will change.... so in fact they do calculate it. So does Shooter, AB and 4DOF

If your LRF uses a ballistic solver, ie Sig 2400, yes it will change the dope. If the LRF sends the data via blue tooth to a solver app, the app changes it. IF the LRF is nothing more than a LRF with Equivalent horizontal distance(no ballistics program), it does nothing for your dope. If you take the ehd from the LRF and input it in your app as the shoot to range, your app will generate the wrong result.

 

[waveslayer]

If your LRF uses a ballistic solver, ie Sig 2400, yes it will change the dope. If the LRF sends the data via blue tooth to a solver app, the app changes it. IF the LRF is nothing more than a LRF with Equivalent horizontal distance(no ballistics program), it does nothing for your dope. If you take the ehd from the LRF and input it in your app as the shoot to range, your app will generate the wrong result.

I think we are talking the same thing, just trying to understand your post, not trying to be a Jack A, just trying to understand.

Yes, if you don't have a better ranger finder that will compensate for angles, then in your ballistic app that I posted earlier, you will see where you input your angle and it will give you the accurate dope. If you have a better range finder then just enter your range and don't mess with the degree options. You will have accurate dope

 

[BrentM]

I think we are talking the same thing, just trying to understand your post, not trying to be a Jack A, just trying to understand.

Yes, if you don't have a better ranger finder that will compensate for angles, then in your ballistic app that I posted earlier, you will see where you input your angle and it will give you the accurate dope. If you have a better range finder then just enter your range and don't mess with the degree options. You will have accurate dope

I have had multiple range finders and have been under the impression all use the same logarithm to get corrected or horizontal equivalent distance. Unless I am missing some new technological advancements that logarithm is a simple equation using cosine angle. You set your LRF from LOS to EHD, EHD takes the range to the target and factors slope degrees to get a corrected distance. The common math in simplified form is also a percentage. IE 20 degree slope is a .94 correction factor. So if you shoot the target at 1750 yards flat ground the correction is 0 and the range is 1750. If you are at a 20 degree angle and shoot the same target at 1750 the EHD will be 94% of that range or .94X1750= 1645 yards.

Now, take your app and run the numbers for 0 slope at 1750 yards. What is the MOA dial? Next, enter 20 degree in the slope or look angle. Recalculate. What is the MOA dial? Now clear the slope or set to 0. Enter the EHD of 1645 yards, calculate the MOA dial. What is the MOA dial? In this example you will have 3 different dial to numbers. 1 is based on the TOF logarithm and the other based on a LRF with EHD.

 

[nimrod_gn]

Excellent. Litz owns AB, Shooter was an offshoot that worked with Litz... AB is more up to date. There are two ballistic solvers, or engines, TRASOL uses, can't remember his name, but he's out of Argentina and owns Cold Bore, and then the other old school engine that Litz uses.

Most real hunters won't need the uphill downhill info because modern range finders calculate for it giving you a true range to target, which you just adjust for wind based on that number

Many of you are still missing the main point - and it appears that most calculators can't and won't handle the issue. The issue is a good rangefinder and/or ballistics app can handle the up/down issue just fine, but the problem in my example is you have a full extra 100 yards of wind exposure that doesn't get accounted for. I ran the numbers on a load for my 28 Nosler and in my example with a 10 mph 90 degree wind there is an extra 10 inches of wind drift. Looks to me like we must notice this and account for it manually when shooting up/down at high angles, long distance and in wind.

 

[waveslayer]

Many of you are still missing the main point - and it appears that most calculators can't and won't handle the issue. The issue is a good rangefinder and/or ballistics app can handle the up/down issue just fine, but the problem in my example is you have a full extra 100 yards of wind exposure that doesn't get accounted for. I ran the numbers on a load for my 28 Nosler and in my example with a 10 mph 90 degree wind there is an extra 10 inches of wind drift. Looks to me like we must notice this and account for it manually when shooting up/down at high angles, long distance and in wind.

Have you verified those 10 extra inches of drift? I think the confusion lies in what the Ballistics app is telling us. If you are at an extreme angle, let's 50 degrees.. just as an example. I'm using an old trusty Lieca 1600 and it reads out (poor innocent deer) at 500 yards, but in reality because of the angle the deer is only 400 yards... (because of the 50 degree angle.) You will not have 10 extra inches of drift like you stated below because your bullet is not traveling an extra 100 yards, it is only traveling 400 yards. That's why I ask if you have verified that data?...

Now If I am using a Sig range finder that compensates for degrees, it reads out 400 yards to the deer.... i'm only going to have drift as far as it drifts at 400 yards...

So what my point was. Ballistics apps compensate for example 1 and 2. IF you are using an old range finder that only reads line of sight you would enter the degree (or angle) of your shot... it will give you the correct dope.. so use my example, deer is 500 yards away but at my shooting angle it is really 400 yards. the app will calculate that when you enter 500 yards and a degree of 50.... Now if your range finder already calculates the actual range, you would leave the degree (or angle of fire) blank and you will get the same DOPE,

You will not have 10 inches of more drift because the actual distance is 400 yards not 500...

Go test it, you will see you are not getting 100 yards of more drift with the 28 Nosler. Your bullet will only drift whatever the actual range is... which is with the angle adjusted range

 

[Mram10us]

your bullet is traveling all 500, thus getting 500yds of wind. Gravity is only acting on 400 of the full value

 

[dfanonymous]

I take issue with that example. The bullet is still traveling at 500 yards despite the angle. The effects of gravity act like, in your given example that it's 400 yards but it's still traveling 500 yards. You need your dope for wind to represent the full 500 yards and your drop will be your slope dope.

 

[dfanonymous]

your bullet is traveling all 500, thus getting 500yds of wind. Gravity is only acting on 400 of the full value

like how we posted that about the same time..

 

[Mram10us]

Makes me feel less crazy

 

[memtb]

Heck guys,I thought that's what I said....in post #5! memtb

 

[waveslayer]

I take issue with that example. The bullet is still traveling at 500 yards despite the angle. The effects of gravity act like, in your given example that it's 400 yards but it's still traveling 500 yards. You need your dope for wind to represent the full 500 yards and your drop will be your slope dope.

Here's what I'm referring to, as you change your degrees up or down your wind values will change as well. Starting from 10 degrees working up to 75 to iterate what I mean... I kept everything the same, 1000 yards using a 6.5 Creedmoor. Both elevation and windage will need adjustments based on your angle of fire

 

[Mram10us]

Heck guys,I thought that's what I said....in post #5! memtb

Basic ballistics, but the op was asking about the software knowing this and people aren't answering it. Squirrel!