Long range with black powder

[liltank]

Due to state restrictions all of my resident deer hunting is done with a ML. I have a T/C Omega which I accurized (pillars/bedding). Until this past year I shot 110gr 777 and a 200gr Shockwave (optimal accuracy) at 2050 fps and have taken 3 deer past 300 yds with a long shot of 338 yds. I regularly target shoot this load to 400 yds but 350 yds on deer is about where I'd limit it, just too slow past that.

This past year the FTX bullets were released so I switched to the .458 325gr FTX and a max load of 135gr 777 at 1950 fps. This load virtually duplicates the trajectory of my previous load to 300 yds then beats it after that, with twice the energy and half the wind drift. I have shot this load to 500 yds with good results but my only kills with it so far were a deer at under 20 yds (BRUTAL on it) and a coyote at 140 yds.

I am currently modifying a Savage Model 11 package gun I bought into a switch-barrel gun so I have a 243Win barrel for coyotes and a Pac-Nor .45cal smokeless ML barrel. People are pushing the 200 Shockwave to nearly 3000 fps with this setup, with 2700-2900 fps being easily acheivable. This would push the max range on game (extrapolating from my previous experience) to around 600 yds. I will also try the 275gr Parker Extreme .45cal bullet sabotless at 2400-2600 fps, which will not be quite as flat but will get another 100 yds or so due to increased energy delivery.

The real difference is that none of these bullets fare very well in the wind. Drift compensations compared to drop values get a bit ridiculous compared to shooting CF rifles. Therefore conditions really become a limiting factor, for all of my 300+ yd shots it was virtually dead calm.

500yd group with the ftx. It was a rotten 100F day and windy so I was happy with this group.

The accurized omega.

The smokeless ML.

Do you need a special bolt head to use the muzzle loader barrel? How does that whole thing work out? You have really sparked an interest in the whole changing the barrel from a centerfire to a muzzle loader. Can you show some close up picks of your set up with explanation?

Tank

 

[ATH]

Tank,

Google "Doug's Savage Board" (once you get there you usually need to click on the link for the NEW board as the old one typically is what is linked to) and you will have a wealth of information by guys who are more innovative than Savage themselves. It's a great group of knowledgeable, very helpful guys.

The factory Savage ML-II, the only mass-produced smokeless muzzleloader, uses a special bolt head so that it can use 209 primers for ignition, just like most inlines. However, just like those of us who learned that regular inlines can be ignited more cleanly and consistently using 25ACP carrier conversion plugs, a number of people now make custom plugs that will fit a Savage that allow you to use 45ACP, 308 or 243 cases as primer carriers so you can ignite with magnum rifle primers. You headspace so that the webbing is tight between the plug nose and bolt face when you cam the bolt down, sealing the breech.

My short-action Model 11 started life as a 243Win sporter, and I'll keep that 243 barrel until I burn it out and replace with a 26" 243AI varmint taper. As such it has the correct bolt head to use 243 or 308 cases as a primer carrier with a custom plug. The custom plug is the last piece of the puzzle that I am waiting on delivery to get out and shoot, so unfortunately I have no pictures that I can supply for you.

The modular and home-tinkerable design of the Savage is what makes this so easy. A barrel nut wrench, a go-gauge for the 243 barrel, and a home-made barrel vise were all I needed to make this a switch barrel gun which takes all of 10 minutes. Even if you have the wrong bolt face it's a $20 part easily changeable on a Savage. I love Remington guns but being able to do this all myself, and switch back and forth, sold me on the Savage this time around.

All that is necessary to change a Savage short action with a 308 bolt face into a smokeless ML are the barrel and breech plug, period!! Pac-Nor now stocks aftermarket drop-in barrels to do this in a variety of twists. Mine is 1-22", the most popular, but I believe you can get them down to 1-14 or 1-16 though I'm not aware of any commercially available bullets or bullet/sabot combination that are long enough to make use of that twist rate. Although at least one individual machines his own PVC sabots so he can shoot .338 250gr Accubonds!! But I need .357 bullets and a .45 barrel to be legal here.

By mid-summer I hope to start on the road of sabotless shooting, where I would size a .451" or .452" bullet down a few thousandths, then knurl back up with two rough files so it grips the bore perfectly.

The specs on the gun in the picture are:
-Base gun Savage Model 11 package gun as sold in Gander Mtn in 243Win
-Rifle Basix adjustable trigger (now the best trigger in my safe; factory one had terrible creep)
-Pac-Nor 26" SuperMatch 1-22" twist .45cal barrel, bead blasted
-Warne Tactical 20MOA base
-Leupold QR rings (you need to get the optics off to swap barrels)
-Scope level
-Bushnell 6500 2.5-16X Tactical scope
-Custom breech plug to prime with 243/308 shortened cases
-HS Precision varmint stock with extra stud

All together this set me back about $2000. Could have saved some by scrounging for a used Savage or a Stevens action but I wanted the 243 and did not want to compromise quality anywhere in the build. Feel free to PM me if you have additional questions, I'm still in the learning phase here. It's been documented for people to hit 3000 fps with the 200SW bullet out of a 23" barrel.

 

[djtjr]

i am not sure if this fits with what you are looking for but for something a bit different Go to bad bull muzzleloaders. some states have inline restrictions and smokeless restrictions so check first as this one would be out on both accounts but its a serious machine where u can use it. I have one due to rifle restrictions in many places i hunt lets just say it aint cheap but it shoots better than any factory centerfire gun i have bought and better than some customs i have. easy point on trajectory to 300 and if you shoot turrets i would not hesitate to shoot past 5-600 yds. shoots well better than 1 moa every time.

 

[mnoland30]

I'm very interested in your long range hunting liltank. I've shot deer at 300 yards with Precision Rifle 340 gr. Dead Centers and wasn't happy with the results. No pass through, no blood trail, and I finally had to finish him at closer range. I shot at 240 yards with Hornady FTP bullet, again with unsatisfactory results. I'm was using a 30 inch barrel and 150 grains of 777.

I saw the pictures of your accurized rifle, but it wasn't clear to me what was done. I assume it is glass bedded, but are the metal pieces shown factory or add ons?

I know this is a very old post, but I'd be very curious about an update. Thanks.

 

[antitactical]

Check out ashland gun innovations. Charlie builds a ton of smokeless muzzleloaders. I've shot hart, bad bulls and gunwerks models and Charlie's will often out shoot them at a much cheaper price. I got him to build me one (a bean field rifle model 30" barrel). I have shot multiple 1/2 moa groups @500 yards and 1 group that had 3 under an inch . His guns work with black horn 209 on those states that require no smokeless. He uses Krieger and brux barrels on trued remington 700 actions with your choice of stocks and triggers. The guns work awesome with a huskemaw scope. The first group shot with mine after I got it on paper measured .117!!!!!!! With an extreme spread of 7fps. Hopefully I will get him to build me a short 20" barrel model for tight cover and climbing treestand work. He's got a website and he's worth a call. I feel completely comfortable with decent conditions shooting 600-700 yards for deer.

 

[cgpaul]

IIRC, I wanna say the Brits kicked our butts using BP ML at the turn of the last century. Wimbelton Cup 1K matches.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I'm very interested in your long range hunting liltank. I've shot deer at 300 yards with Precision Rifle 340 gr. Dead Centers and wasn't happy with the results. No pass through, no blood trail, and I finally had to finish him at closer range. I shot at 240 yards with Hornady FTP bullet, again with unsatisfactory results. I'm was using a 30 inch barrel and 150 grains of 777.

I saw the pictures of your accurized rifle, but it wasn't clear to me what was done. I assume it is glass bedded, but are the metal pieces shown factory or add ons?

I know this is a very old post, but I'd be very curious about an update. Thanks.

Check out Hankins Custom muzzleloaders on youtube. It's pretty **** impressive.

 

[RMulhern]

Not the longest...but it'll do!

 

[ATH]

I'm very interested in your long range hunting liltank. I've shot deer at 300 yards with Precision Rifle 340 gr. Dead Centers and wasn't happy with the results. No pass through, no blood trail, and I finally had to finish him at closer range. I shot at 240 yards with Hornady FTP bullet, again with unsatisfactory results. I'm was using a 30 inch barrel and 150 grains of 777.

I saw the pictures of your accurized rifle, but it wasn't clear to me what was done. I assume it is glass bedded, but are the metal pieces shown factory or add ons?

I know this is a very old post, but I'd be very curious about an update. Thanks.

I think you were actually looking at my rifle quoted by Tank.

I'm not sure what metal pieces you are referring to, but I'm assuming it was the aluminum pillars that I installed myself prior to resin bedding the action. This process greatly increased the accuracy of the rifle. I posted the only 500 yard group I ever shot with the rifle, about 7" but that was on a very hot and windy day shooting as fast as I could get the shots off as I was limited on time. After the fact, given how much time I spent setting it up, I regretted rushing through the shooting process as I know I could have shaved that down with some care.

The furthest I ever shot a deer with that rifle was 338 yards with 110gr 777 and a 200SW; not sure why your experience was so bad but mine passed through both sides and dropped the deer where it stood. I had used Dead Centers in a prior gun (.357 Duplex sabots) but they did not group in this one.

I shot about 3 seasons with the smokeless gun. The long shots were either not necessary these years or the deer did not cooperate by hanging around without moving. So the longest shot I ever took at deer was around 225 yards and it was easy and performance was good. I actually had to worry more about shot shots because the bullets were grenades within 100 yards; last year I shot nothing with it as both of my deer were within 100 yards so I shot them with a .44Mag carbine I also carry.

I've been through two plug/breechface arrangements with the gun. First using shortened 308 cases as primer carriers with a crush-fit nipple plug. Doesn't work well as it's pretty easy to get the nipple gas-cut and then it's junk. An online acquaintance used my gun as a model and made up a Savage boltface replacement which holds 209s and uses the standard Savage ML plug, and this works pretty well.

I never had an opportunity to shoot the smokeless past 400 yards, which it did with ease. I've seen plenty of reports with people using the heavier Parker bullets shot sabotless at ranges up to 600 yards and more with good luck, but I have a young family and never found time to play with that.

This year I had a .358 wildcat made which is legal in Indiana for deer, so I'm not going to ML except in the ML season if I need to. Will probably turn the smokeless gun into a 243AI.

 

[Nowoolies]

That was a sharps or a rolling block cartrige rifle and I think the original poster was
talking about a muzzleloader.

I agree that the black powder cartrige rifles were much more accurate because they
were breach loaders and the bullet engraves on the way out instead of on the way in
as in a muzzleloader. that was the principle behind the Mini ball (It expanded on
firing engraving on it's way out like modern rifles).

And I'll bet if you could ask Billy Dixon how he made that shot he would tell you it was
80 % luck and 20 % skill.

J E CUSTOM

No not muzzle loader just says black powder

 

[Nowoolies]

A mate and I use our sharps and Springfields out too 1500 yards on steel targets fantastic fun just gotta wait for the smoke too clear lol
500 grain projectiles out of the Springfield and 535 grain postwell out of the sharps creedmore
Took it bit to learn the range with these but great fun ,
and not hard to see a miss these big pills really move the dirt
Did heaps of reading on the U S military testing last century on a beach in Florida sorta trying to get their distances lol one day maybe