Break in problems?

[Jeff In TX]

Exactly Chawlston. Well said.

Those who debate the effectiveness of break in obviously have never done it. No matter how smooth or lapped a barrel is, if it has a chamber, it will have burrs where the reamer stopped. PERIOD. You can shoot them out with a thousand rounds without cleaning and take your chances with accuracy or you can break it in and "waste" 10 or 20 shots and get accuracy and easy cleaning immediately.

And proof is in the testing. If breakin did nothing, then what is to explain the sudden reduction of cleaning time and/or the sudden change in POI when it happens?

What proof? Your results are purely theoretical and have zero basis. All you've done is create a process with no measurable results. The end result is your match grade barrels from different manufactures shoot well and clean up easy. I'd expect no difference in any of those match grade barrels you've listed as they come from top of the line barrel manufactures.

Where is your side-by-side comparison where you didn't follow this process? All you've done is create a warm fuzzy process for yourself. I'm an engineer and in no way shape or form could I use your process/reasoning in my line of work.

I just broke (I'll use your term braking in a barrel) my brand new .300 WSM Bartlein SS match barrel on my LH Model 70 featherweight. 20 painful rounds without cleaning (she's nicked name the mule for a reason), however the more I shot the tigher the groups got.

By the end of the last 3 round groups she was shooting just over .5 groups and I haven't started any load development yet. I was using rounds I had from the former barrel. When it came time to clean the rifle, the barrel showed a bit of fouling (using a borescope), however 3 hours later with WipeOut she was sparkling clean. Next time at the range and she was shooting the same .5 and .6 groups and clean up is the same and yes we checked our results with a borescope. Currently she's shooting in the high .4's and .5's with the new loads we're developing. We only shoot 3-round groups as this is a light weight hunting rifle.

None of this shoot one clean nonsense, it's a waist of time. Just ask the US Army and Marine corp why they don't have or use a barrel breakin process on their tactical weapons. They've done testing on 1000's of barrels and they found no need to shoot and clean any of them.

Hey if it makes you feel safe and you don't mind all the time cleaning...have at it.

 

[lerch]

Well i aint gonna get into the bickering here but I gotta say there is something to breaking in a bbl. Now for shooting one shot and cleaning everytime for X number of shot, GG you a BJ would buddy up nicely because i still give him hell about him doing that!!!! Honestly yea it might be the best way but **** I hate doing it. My preffered method is to scrub the bore clean and then run a really oily patch down the bore to lube her up nice. this is why i like to shot 2 to 3 shot stretchs and then clean cause the first shot burns out the lube. The best i can figure is that having a first shot down a lubed bore prevents possibly over excessive copper fouling due to a dry metal on dry metal, i figure after the second shot in any kind of bore you are gonna have some kind of lubrication.

I am also one of the few people who doesnt use a copper brush, not cause i have a proble with them at all though. I use Kydex plastic brushes so that i can get that back and forth in the bore scrub for the first few inches of the throat where carbon really collects. This is really just cause i think i can get the job done a little quicker and i am kinda lazy!!!

I doubt you are gonna find another person on this board to tell you that the bbl break in process is pointless, yea it sucks but honestly it dont take to long and it is worth it.

 

[goodgrouper]

Jeff,
I really wish what you are saying was true! It sure would save lots of time, money,and elbow grease. But what you said isn't true. That fact that you debate this is amazing to me. Being an engineer, you should know that most high intensity machines have factory recommended break-in periods. Heck, even the lathes that make a lot of the parts for these machines have break-in periods! Barrels are high intensity tools that are machined and need the same care.

My results are not theoretical. They come from breaking in hundreds of barrels-factory and new. In fact, most have been factory barrels and they need it even more than customs. They always take longer to breakin. And my results are in harmony with thousands of benchrest shooters who have broke in tens of thousands of barrels with similiar results. We are not talking about one Bartlein 300 WSM barrel here. We are talking about tons of barrels broken in with personal experimentation for the use of competition. This is a mountain of evidence that goes right in the face of your limited, biased view of your one barrel.

And check with the barrel mnfgrs themselves. They will tell you the same things. No matter how smooth they lap their barrels, when the chamber is put in it creates burrs. And factory barrels are not lapped AND have chambers so you can imagine how many burrs are in them.

Quote: All you've done is create a process with no measurable results.

No. They are very measurable bud. I have well documented many breakin procedures here on this forum. I can measure what is going on both in number of patches to come clean and distance of POI over the course of the break in. Guys like you still cannot and have not given any explanation of why this happens.

Your proof is you say you can shoot a thousand rounds and get good groups right from the start and they actually improve as you go. I don't see how this even relates to barrel breakin. I have guns that shoot better dirty too. It simply means that your barrel is so rough that a good layer of copper is needed to retain accuracy. It has absolutely nothing to do with the beginning life of the barrel.

And your military explanation is devoid of reasonable truth. The military buys tens of thousands of barrels, chrome lines them and sends them out into every corner of the world in the hands of average men looking to shoot man sized objects. Any breakin procedure in these circumstances would be impractical and too costly. ANd besides, these are not usually accuracy minded individuals trying to put 5 shots into a 3" X at 1000 yards. These are people shooting semi-automatics at man sized targets with guns THEY DIDN'T PAY FOR! So let's get real here bud. Go to a br match. Ask a few questions. You might just learn something.

As for me, I'll keep doing what common sense should make obvious. Until someone starts beating world records and openly admits it was all due to the fact that he never cleaned or broke in his rifle, I'm gonna keep on keepin on.

And by the way, I believe Deizel was asking "how" to break in, not "if" he should. Wink.

 

[devildoc]

I'd have to agree with the crowd on this one. Just from a conceptual standpoint it only seems reasonable that the barrel will lap out quicker if you keep it down to bare metal. What exactly are you using for your indicator in the bore that barrel break in didn't work? Unless you can see whether or not the bearing surfaces of the bore are smoother or not and since we're talking about a microscopic level here I doubt you can.

Of course with using wipeout it is hard to tell whether cleanup is easier or not, but back when we were all using Sweets and ME, it's pretty easy to tell that after a couple shots of cleaning between shots you weren't getting much blue on your patch anymore. I doubt you can quantify how much copper fouling is in the barrel via borescope, the surface area of the bore that is copper washed doesn't tell you how deep it is, and I would expect that it varies very little with relation to how much copper is there. Though, I have never used a borescope and am therefore making the sin of assumptions here.

 

[Jeff In TX]

This subject gets as touchy as politics and religion. Even the top barrel makers can't agree on the subject. If you really want to know the true forensics of what happens when you pull the trigger and the round goes off and the bullet enters and exits the barrel give Mike Rock a call at Rock Creek barrels. Mike is one of a handful of individuals in the country who is truly qualified to answer and explain what really happens when the gun goes bang and why barrel breakin is total crock.

Before opening your mouth and start disputing what I have to say without anything but I think it works this way or this process always works for me, talk to someone who number one is one of the top barrel manufactures in the country. Has a degree in metallurgy and worked the at US Army Aberdeen Proving grounds where they did extensive small arms forensics on ballistics and barrels. At Aberdeen they used high speed bore video's, pressure gauges as well as thermal imaging and computers to analyze any and everything that happens when the firing pin hits the primer and the round goes off. They also dissected hundreds of barrels to verify there results.

After all the testing the US Army and Marine Corp concluded that the barrel break in process was a waist of time. The testing was done on barrels destine for tactical weapons and not the every day grunts weapon.

So if you really want to learn about ballistics and barrel forensic stop guessing and ask someone who is truly qualified. I can't tell you the countless number of hours I've spent on the phone with Mike learning as much as I can.

 

[devildoc]

So you're "evidence" is the supposed opinion of a guy with supposed experience with what sounds like what would be very interesting data, but as I understand it, you niether have reviewed the data yourself or have access to it?

Hey if what you say is true thats great news, but you'll forgive me if I'm not just gonna take your word for it.

 

[goodgrouper]

So you're "evidence" is the supposed opinion of a guy with supposed experience with what sounds like what would be very interesting data, but as I understand it, you niether have reviewed the data yourself or have access to it?

Hey if what you say is true thats great news, but you'll forgive me if I'm not just gonna take your word for it.

Exactly.

 

[goodgrouper]

Even the top barrel makers can't agree on the subject.

Well, actually they can. Most mnfrgs agree and recommend breakin.
And I have talked to Mike Rock about it. My last barrel from Rock had tool marks in it that he failed to lap out. His response to me was to keep shooting and cleaning it and they should burnish out with time. In other words, after I get it broke in, they should be gone. If I never cleaned it, then copper would just keep stacking up and they would always be there.

So if you really want to learn about ballistics and barrel forensic stop guessing and ask someone who is truly qualified. I can't tell you the countless number of hours I've spent on the phone with Mike learning as much as I can.

While you were talking about it, I was doing it. I was running experiments on this while you were running a phone bill. And I still believe thousands of individual accuracy minded shooter's experiments outweighs any army results of practicality. Not to mention the fact that you still can't answer my simple questions:

If break-in (not brake-in) does nothing, why does the cleaning time get cut in half when doing the process?

If break-in does nothing, why does the point of impact change while the barrel is being broke in?

Why do custom barrel manufacturers lap their barrels if burrs and imperfections do nothing to the accuracy potential of barrels?

What happens to the burrs from chambering a barrel or do you deny they exist too?

 

[Jeff In TX]

Why do custom barrel manufacturers lap their barrels if burrs and imperfections do nothing to the accuracy potential of barrels?

What happens to the burrs from chambering a barrel or do you deny they exist too?

I buy custom barrels because of all the extra work that goes into them such as hand lapping to remove any burrs and polishing the bore.

Having said that, barrel manufactures don't use cotton patches with bore cleaner or even a bronze brush to hand lap their barrels to remove those burrs! Why, well genius tell us, because it wouldn't work! It doesn't take an engineer to understand this isn't going to work.

I also don't deny in any way shape or form you don't get burrs in the chamber when it was cut.

So how the heck would a cotton patch with bore cleaner or a bronze bore brush remove burrs from where the chamber was cut? Also my new Bartlein barrel explicitly states that I will void my barrel warranty if I use JB's in my barrel. These products can also alter the characteristic of the barrels and that's why some barrel manufactures void your warranty if you use them.

I'm done with this, if cleaning between rounds makes you feel good, then have it.

 

[goodgrouper]

I buy custom barrels because of all the extra work that goes into them such as hand lapping to remove any burrs and polishing the bore.

Having said that, barrel manufactures don't use cotton patches with bore cleaner or even a bronze brush to hand lap their barrels to remove those burrs! Why, well genius tell us, because it wouldn't work! It doesn't take an engineer to understand this isn't going to work.

I also don't deny in any way shape or form you don't get burrs in the chamber when it was cut.

So how the heck would a cotton patch with bore cleaner or a bronze bore brush remove burrs from where the chamber was cut? Also my new Bartlein barrel explicitly states that I will void my barrel warranty if I use JB's in my barrel. These products can also alter the characteristic of the barrels and that's why some barrel manufactures void your warranty if you use them.

I'm done with this, if cleaning between rounds makes you feel good, then have it.

Let me get this straight. You're an engineer and you think it's the cotton patches that are doing the breakin? And you think that hand lapping removes 100% of the burrs? Are you sure you're for real?

I don't think I have to prove any more points (you still haven't answered any of the above questions by the way) because I think anyone reading this thread can now see you're bucket doesn't hold any water. Have a great day in your own little world Jeff.

 

[devildoc]

The cleaning process doesn't remove the burrs, however the bullet going down a bare bore does. That's why we clean between shots, so the bullet contacts the bare bore instead of just the fouling left from previous shots.

I'm surprised that you are so adamant about something that you have no proof to support, and yet you attack everybody else for not having data al-la Aberdeen testing grounds that you don't have either, though you claim it exists. And as a guy with an extensive science background, I can tell you that that doesn't cut the mustard.

If you intend to contradict the accepted knowledge of the day it is you sir that must bear the burden of proof. That's the way it has always worked.

It is true that JB will void some custom barrels warrantee, it is a mild abrasive and some custom makers don't want you messin' with their hand lapping job. And if you have one of those barrels, don't use JB. There are also some makers that recommend it, there are also alot of us that use it as a lapping agent on factory barrels that haven't had the benefit of professional hand lapping.

There are a ton of different break-in techniques advocated by lots of different people. Most of the competitive shooting world uses one of them, if you have some real proof that it's a waste of time I'd be happy to listen. But If you're gonna start screaming that what the rest of the rifle community is doing is stupid and they don't know what they're talking about, it might behoove you to have a little more backup than what one barrel maker told you over the phone.

 

[Delta Hunter]

I'm not certain of exactly what happens inside the bore (though something most certainly does happen) with rifle break-in, whether you use one of the tedious methods or you simply shoot a couple hundred times and thoroughly clean every 20 to 30 rounds or so. However, one thing I am certain about is that in 35 years of hunting I can't think of one single animal I've taken that was a result of having performed one of those tedious break in methods and couldn't have been taken otherwise. So, having performed a few of these tedious break-ins, I came to the conclusion about 4 or 5 years ago that it was a waste of my time and haven't bothered with it since.

 

[Pdvdh]

I think the cleaning after every shot recommendation for the first 10 shots is good advice for any new barrel. Most recently I used that method in two Tikka T3 factory barrels. Both barrels improved dramatically in the first 10 shots as far as the amount of copper stripping left in the bore between shots. I'm all for getting the break-in accomplished sooner rather than later, so I can then get on with the load testing and selection.

I believe the barrels would break in over time without following the shoot and clean break-in process, provided the barrel was cleaned down to the bare steel every now and then. But why not get the bore smoothed out right off the bat and be over and done with it? I generally work up a maximum load during the shoot one shot and clean break-in process and then proceed to shoot for groups starting from maximum load and working on down in powder charge increments.

None of this matters for shooting big game out to 3-400 yards, but it's just another process that improves one's ability to connect on out past 750 yds.

I'm an engineer also, but I'm cautious about relying too much on theory when the empirical evidence is running contrary to some engineering theory. Which seems to be the case here. I'm sure I'm not going to ruin a new barrel by cleaning it down to the bare steel after every shot for the first 10-20 shots. If the barrel strips less copper and shoots better after that process, then I want to reach the point sooner rather than later.

 

[goodgrouper]

The cleaning process doesn't remove the burrs, however the bullet going down a bare bore does. That's why we clean between shots, so the bullet contacts the bare bore instead of just the fouling left from previous shots.

I'm surprised that you are so adamant about something that you have no proof to support, and yet you attack everybody else for not having data al-la Aberdeen testing grounds that you don't have either, though you claim it exists. And as a guy with an extensive science background, I can tell you that that doesn't cut the mustard.

If you intend to contradict the accepted knowledge of the day it is you sir that must bear the burden of proof. That's the way it has always worked.

It is true that JB will void some custom barrels warrantee, it is a mild abrasive and some custom makers don't want you messin' with their hand lapping job. And if you have one of those barrels, don't use JB. There are also some makers that recommend it, there are also alot of us that use it as a lapping agent on factory barrels that haven't had the benefit of professional hand lapping.

There are a ton of different break-in techniques advocated by lots of different people. Most of the competitive shooting world uses one of them, if you have some real proof that it's a waste of time I'd be happy to listen. But If you're gonna start screaming that what the rest of the rifle community is doing is stupid and they don't know what they're talking about, it might behoove you to have a little more backup than what one barrel maker told you over the phone.

That was so perfectly said that I will quote it again.

The cleaning process doesn't remove the burrs, however the bullet going down a bare bore does. That's why we clean between shots, so the bullet contacts the bare bore instead of just the fouling left from previous shots.

I'm surprised that you are so adamant about something that you have no proof to support, and yet you attack everybody else for not having data al-la Aberdeen testing grounds that you don't have either, though you claim it exists. And as a guy with an extensive science background, I can tell you that that doesn't cut the mustard.

If you intend to contradict the accepted knowledge of the day it is you sir that must bear the burden of proof. That's the way it has always worked.

It is true that JB will void some custom barrels warrantee, it is a mild abrasive and some custom makers don't want you messin' with their hand lapping job. And if you have one of those barrels, don't use JB. There are also some makers that recommend it, there are also alot of us that use it as a lapping agent on factory barrels that haven't had the benefit of professional hand lapping.

There are a ton of different break-in techniques advocated by lots of different people. Most of the competitive shooting world uses one of them, if you have some real proof that it's a waste of time I'd be happy to listen. But If you're gonna start screaming that what the rest of the rifle community is doing is stupid and they don't know what they're talking about, it might behoove you to have a little more backup than what one barrel maker told you over the phone.