Where is tech at on laser wind sensing?

[Danehunter]

It seems that there is now the laser/computer technology existing to read wind averages between the optics and the target.

With this new laser wind-reading tech and all the computer power presently crammed into the Kestrel/AB 5700 it would appear that (given the correct inputs of data) we may soon may have something like a Burris Eliminator type rifle scope that "does it all" with no need for a Kestrel instrument.

Currently the Kestrel units can only read wind at the FFP of the shooter. To be able to read the average wind all the way to the target would be amazing.

I'm wondering how far away this tech is for we mere "civilians".

Eric B.

 

[Len Backus]

Amazing toys out there for us boys, these days.

 

[BallisticsGuy]

The question itself exposes a lack of understanding or just a pause in understanding about lasers and digital signal processing but let's follow it through because it's a neat topic. The short answer is, too many problems that can't be gotten around.

Laser measurement of anything relies on the laser light itself being affected in some way by the thing being measured so that that alteration can be measured. You don't measure range with a laser, you measure time and time gives you the range. It's indirect. For laser ranging we rely on lights' ability to be reflected and it having a fixed and enormously high speed of propagation. Moving air in a homogeneous mass won't distort a laser because the air molecules in any one section of space are only being replaced by others, the pressure/density and most importantly refractive index isn't being changed. If you were to shoot that laser through regions of greatly differing air density (a heterogeneous air mass) then you might be able to make something work by measuring the distortion of received or reflected light. That gets to another large problem, the inverse square law of the propagation of light. If you double the distance you need 4x the power to get the same intensity. That's fine for targets that are consistently far away but it means that you're using needlessly high wattage closer in.

Once you get past the problems of the behavior of light and basic physics you need to get to the analytics portion. Since you can't precognitively know where the target will be in all situations and targets don't always stand still we can't send a receiver/processor to the target in advance that would be able to process the distortion of a beam of laser light. Even if we could process distortion at the target the final reporting signal would need to be relayed back to the FFP in near real time.

That's another problem of the inverse square law: reducing received wattage. So, we'd need to be able to get the light to return to a sensor at the FFP with sufficient wattage to be picked up so we can process that signal and then the actual processing becomes a problem to sort out.

Consider that air doesn't ever behave itself. It is constantly changing invisibly. Filled with currents that spin and fold inside the main mass, never repeating any one configuration and it never stops moving. How do you report on the current position of something that's nearly random in its behavior when that current position will by definition be in the past by the time it's reported on. As such, real time processing of distortion (any processing of light returned to the FFP) doesn't make it possible to certify the accuracy of the measurement.

So basically, you're rooster blocked at every turn. Physics doesn't seemingly like us asking this sort of question.

This is what keeps us in the game. There's one thing nobody will ever truly solve for. Wind. People can individually develop the skill and hone the art but to systematize and instrument wind over distances larger than the conversational at a level of precision suited to long range precision rifle shooting is a fantasy vignette contained within a cylinder which is open on both ends.

 

[THEIS]

Hello,

LIDAR and LIDAR Hybrid systems are the "future" tech on wind sensing, not lasers.

Scaling the size down to "civilian" level is the last hurdle that needs to be jumped (IMO) for you to start seeing this technology gain traction in the "civilian" market.
Right now the leading wind sensing LIDAR system is 12 pounds and (depending on options) sucks up 18W of power and have a 5-6Km range with crosswind and vertical wind accuracy of under 2mph.

Plus the other problem with laser wind sensing is..the laser cannot be arched in accordance to the projectile flight path so it is/would just be a guess anyways. LIDAR systems can provide measurements at actual projectile flight path.

THEIS

 

[Deleted member 46119]

Hello,

LIDAR and LIDAR Hybrid systems are the "future" tech on wind sensing, not lasers.

Scaling the size down to "civilian" level is the last hurdle that needs to be jumped (IMO) for you to start seeing this technology gain traction in the "civilian" market.
Right now the leading wind sensing LIDAR system is 12 pounds and (depending on options) sucks up 18W of power and have a 5-6Km range with crosswind and vertical wind accuracy of under 2mph.

Plus the other problem with laser wind sensing is..the laser cannot be arched in accordance to the projectile flight path so it is/would just be a guess anyways. LIDAR systems can provide measurements at actual projectile flight path.

THEIS

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[Danehunter]

Aaaarrrggghh!

My bad. I meant to write LIDAR and had a senior brain fart. I had just finished reading an article on LIDAR tech for wind farms and still it didn't transfer from brain to fingers when I wrote the post. The wind-sensing LIDAR I meant to say is a different "species" of laser inferometry.

I agree, standard IR single beam ranging laser beams would not be able to detect wind, mirage notwithstanding.

But UV scanning LIDAR has the ability to do so, especially in more humid conditions. I think the power required for this kind of wind-sensing LIDAR is the main technological obstacle.

Eric B.

 

[codyadams]

I am torn on this technology, and can see where it would get very controversial, even in our somewhat small community. For long range shooting for fun, absolutely!! It could also be a wonderful training tool for learning to read wind. But in spite of possibly upsetting some people, I feel this is important to bring up on this amazing technology.

But as far as hunting is concerned, with everything available to us, the last part of the equation that relies mostly 100% on human skill, and requires discipline and practice, is judging wind. Yes, you must have an accurate rifle/ammunition combo, a reliable rangefinder, some sort of ballistic callibration, a good trigger squeeze and proper optics, which a couple of these require some skill, but you must be able to get a decent wind call to make that first round hit.

If something like this came out to the general public for use in hunting, it would take the need for skill, discipline, and practice away from the long range community. One of the biggest reasons we do this, at least in my opinion, is the challenge and the feeling of accomplishment when you have the ability to make that hit at 1000 yards on your first round with a 9 mph crosswind, that you called and timed your shot for.

Anyone with the money to buy this stuff and pay someone to do load development and trajectory validation could do it, those guys that shoot their rifle once a year right before deer season to make sure they can hit a milk jug sized target at 100 yards would now be capable of what takes most people years of practice. The need for skill would be all but gone. All that would be needed would be to put in your scope what an app tells you and shoot.

And as far as ethics for hunting, this goes two ways depending on how you look at it. In one way it's good, as bad wind calls would pretty much not exist with the use of this tool, thus less wounded animals. On the other hand, is the argument on fair chase, which we are already looked down upon by some people, even other hunters.

Regardless of the possible controversial aspects, this is amazing technology, and could definitely be a game changer. And even with my thoughts on it for hunting, I still think it could be an amazing tool for shooting steel and learning winds, like having the answer key for a test you are studying for. I'm just unsure on my opinion of such a tool for big game hunting. Prarie dogs and coyotes would sure be in trouble though....

 

[THEIS]

But UV scanning LIDAR has the ability to do so, especially in more humid conditions. I think the power required for this kind of wind-sensing LIDAR is the main technological obstacle.

Eric B.

Hello,

I think TPLs venom xl wind lidar system is the leading product for "shooters" usage.
When it is paired with their ballistic solver software it becomes are formidable piece of equipment to the ELR/HTI Military Teams, but as I mentioned before..it is 12lbs and 18W usage.
When TPI gets a smaller unit that is around 6lbs with easy power source I think you will see them become utilized by "civilians" more.

THEIS