Viability of 8mm Mauser (8x57) as a long range round

[Brian564]

Has anyone here used this for long range hunting? Does it have the qualities that make other rounds popular for this sort of shooting, such as the 308 Win and 300 Win Mag? Any comments on that round are appreciated.

 

[benchracer]

Has anyone here used this for long range hunting? Does it have the qualities that make other rounds popular for this sort of shooting, such as the 308 Win and 300 Win Mag? Any comments on that round are appreciated.

The first question I can think of is: How are you defining long range?

I messed around with it quite a few years back. At the time, the best powders I found for use with heavy bullets were H4350 and RL-15. RL-17 was introduced later and I suspect it would be an excellent choice for the 8x57.

The problem with the 8x57 as a long range round really has to do with bullet selection. There aren't many high bc choices available. Of the ones available, you have a choice between 200 grain match bullets from various manufacturers, or something like the 220 grain SGK, which is a tougher bullet designed for 8mm Remington Magnum impact velocities. All of them will have a .520ish bc. You should be able to push the 200's to 2650 or so and the 220 SGK to 2600 or so from a 24" barrel, while remaining well within CIP pressure limits.

Based on those numbers, the 8x57 is capable of performance on par with a .308 shooting 175 grain match bullets, so it would be useful to think of it in those terms.

 

[gohring3006]

If we could get a higher BC 200-220grn bullet. I would do a improved version of the 8×57.

 

[RT2506]

Probably the best bullets for hunting with the 8mm would be the Hornady 195 gr and the Nosler 180 ballistic tip. Both are made to work at the 8x57JS velocity range. You can get the 180 going 2600ish and the 195 2500ish fps. The Germans used a 196 or about gr boat tail bullet made for machine guns for long range sniper work I have read during WWII to pretty good effect. Talking to actual WWII combat veterans they have told me that you did not want to expose even a little bit of your body when one of those trained snipers was in the area or it would get a bullet through the exposed part.
I have fooled around with the 8x57JS with stock military rifles but not over 200 yards. Varget does well with 200 gr match kings and I have killed a couple deer with 150 gr Sierras between 50 and 125 yards pushed with a case full of IMR4064. Not much difference between this load and a full power 308 or 30-06. A lot of the loading data is low pressure stuff so people don't blow up the old rifles that were made with barrels for .318 diameter bullets instead of the .323. There max listed loads are where I started at and worked up for the .323 bore rifles. You can make your cases out of 30-06 cases by removing the expander rod in your FL sizing die and run the 06 case into the 8mm die and then trim them. Some trim a bit off the neck of the 06 before they run into the 8mm die. After trimming replace the expander rod and run the case back through the FL die.

 

[westcliffe01]

After messing around with milsurp Mauser rifles rather unsuccessfully (barrels typically in bad shape, pitted) and the fundamental problems with mounting a scope I got out that game and ordered a custom 8x57 varmint contour match barrel for one of my Savage actions.

If I recall, I paid under $200 for the base rifle (a used 270) and all I had to do was remove the barrel, screw on the new barrel and head space it (5 min job) and drop the action into a new stock. 196gr HPBT Hornady bullets are quite cheap (37c each) and the 200gr SMK are 41c each both being in stock, which one cannot say for a lot of other components today. Brass is readily available too.

I have not done too much load development with it yet, but based on the cartridge capacity and the bigger bore vs a 308 or 3006, it is fundamentally a lower pressure round. As mentioned the reloading data tends to be very conservative, given that it is intended to preserve some very old weapons made under highly suspect quality control.

For the bullet diameter, the weight is rather light, so it is not a ballistically excellent cartridge and it does what many other cartridges can do. Given the demand for high BC bullets in several more popular diameters, there is basically no chance that Berger or Sierra will even consider making a higher BC bullet. The cartridge does get used for hunting in Europe, but most of the time for much closer shots so there is no need in that market for a better bullet either.

I got my barrel because I have a stash of the sniper grade ammunition that cost more than the barrel, even though it was about 50c per round at the time. Berdan primed so no worrying about the brass either. Just a fun rifle with good accuracy..

 

[Varberger757]

Has anyone here used this for long range hunting? Does it have the qualities that make other rounds popular for this sort of shooting, such as the 308 Win and 300 Win Mag? Any comments on that round are appreciated.

@Brian564, if you want some more and really sufficient answers about the great 8 x 57IS you should absolutely take a look at the "8mm thread" on this forum or visit European sites!
The problem in the US with the fabricated cartridges/load - data made for 8mmS/.323 is their ridiculous "performance" caused by the SAAMI - system. In Europe the same type of ammo generates up to 300fp/s more MV than their American counterparts ... exception is Hornady with its magnificent 8 x 57IS versions which you can't purchase in the USA (for export only). RWS and Brenneke f. ex. deliver the 8x57IS readily with the (famous) TIG - bullet in 198gr/12,8g. MV is 800m/s or 2624 fp/s which isn't bad at all. There are in fact many good bullets with stronger BC on the market like Nosler AB, Nosler CC, Swift Scirocco II, etc, etc. and piles of very good other projectiles bonded or not. And more to come! Both the 8x57IS and its rimmed sister the 8x57IRS are extremely popular for hunting in Europe and that by good reason. For LRH case capacity is unfortunately far to limited. On the "old continent" we use the magnificent 8x68S for that purpose and shoot 220gr bullets (f. ex. SGK) with a MV of 2920fp/s.
You may use the lovely American BIG - 8 or take a look at @Swamplord's project, the more than impressive 8mmLRH. That's a 338 Norma Mag necked down to 8mmS/.323 with a h20 cpacity of 111,4gr ... here we talk performance.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/8mm-thread-121537/index25.html

 

[westcliffe01]

Back to the OP's original question, a 7x57 or 7x57 Ackley or a 6.5x55 Ackley likely give you better long range options because of the higher velocity, better bullet choices and readier availability of good barrel blanks.

 

[Varberger757]

[FONT=&quot]If I remember correctly the OP asked explicitly for 8mm and not 7 ...!? If not and all depends on the parent case he should also take a look at the 6,5 x 57. For the use of 7mm/.284 I'd strongly recommend the strong and versatile 7x64. This particular cartridge was the "inspiration" for both the 270W and 280Rem.[/FONT]

 

[Brian564]

Some excellent data here people. Thank you! Never knew about the difference between European and US rounds. I will need to do more research on this point as I'm planning a future purchase of an Anschutz 1780 in this caliber, and being in the US I need to make sure I have a source of ammo that would function best in this rifle.

 

[RT2506]

Unless you handload I would forget the 8x57. The only factory ammo in the USA that is really up to snuff is Norma. I forgot about the 200 gr Accubond bullet that Nosler came out with which should be a good hunting bullet. When looking at loading data you may find 8x57J which is for rifles that had .318 diameter bores. The 1888 Commission Mauser rifle mainly which used a 226 gr round nose bullet at 2100 fps. In 1905 the German military revised the cartridge upping the diameter of the bore and bullet to .323 and called it 8x57JS or 7.9x57 or 7.92x57. It used a 154 gr spitzer bullet that ran about 2900 fps. But they did re-barrel some of the 88 Commission rifles with .323 barrels and some German rifle makers continued to use .318 bores after WWI for the civilian market because of the Versailles treaty's restrictions on military rifle production. My buddy had one of these very fine civilian hunting rifles. It had double set triggers with flip up express rear sights with ivory bead front sight. Norma made ammo in 8x57J with the .318 diameter bullet and he bought some to try. Man that rifle shot well. Some collector gave him a pile of cash for it. If you run into an old rifle it is best to slug the bore just to be sure what diameter it has but new barrels will be .323.

 

[Beng]

Forget about 8mm caliber, it is obsolete.
Even in Germany most hunters use .308 Win, .30-06 &c, the 9.3x62 is pretty popular too.
The 8x57 IS is mostly used either in old rifles chambered during the last century or by enthusiasts (most of them without ballistical knowledge) shooting inside 200 yards.
Any .30-06 can do what a 8x57 can, with much better availability of reloading equipment and due to better bullets with better ballistic efficiency.

 

[Varberger757]

Forget about 8mm caliber, it is obsolete.
Even in Germany most hunters use .308 Win, .30-06 &c, the 9.3x62 is pretty popular too.
The 8x57 IS is mostly used either in old rifles chambered during the last century or by enthusiasts (most of them without ballistical knowledge) shooting inside 200 yards.
Any .30-06 can do what a 8x57 can, with much better availability of reloading equipment and due to better bullets with better ballistic efficiency.

[FONT=&quot]Every time you are posting about European and especially German calibres on this forum you call them obsolete, and that only the American products are way to go and more of this incredible BS! It is irritating that someone tries to write down everything that's coming from his home country (??) if that's the case?! What's your intention? Getting popular here on this site by sucking up to someone's a##? You are not telling the truth by intention, and that's the worst thing! 8x57IS is very popular in Germany and throughout Europe, and it's ordered for new rifles all the way and in growing numbers, because hunters recognized its undisputed values. To tell that reloading equipment for the 3006 is easier available throughout Germany as for 8x57IS is just a d#¤&d lie! This is a site for people who love hunting and their equipment and not about false propaganda![/FONT]

 

[benchracer]

Forget about 8mm caliber, it is obsolete.
Even in Germany most hunters use .308 Win, .30-06 &c, the 9.3x62 is pretty popular too.
The 8x57 IS is mostly used either in old rifles chambered during the last century or by enthusiasts (most of them without ballistical knowledge) shooting inside 200 yards.
Any .30-06 can do what a 8x57 can, with much better availability of reloading equipment and due to better bullets with better ballistic efficiency.

I agree with this assessment. It is a decent standard hunting cartridge for hunting at standard ranges. A person might want to use it in a classic rifle for purposes of nostalgia, but the 8x57 is not worth building a new rifle around. Like other bullet diameters such as .277 and .257, the .318/.323 bullets are bracketed by calibers with better, more efficient bullets available. Once re-barreling is on the table, it makes more sense to step up to .338 or down to the .30's.

As previously mentioned, and unlike the 8mm, some of the other old mauser cartridges such as 7x57 and 6.5x55 benefit greatly from the availability of modern bullets. Loaded to their potential, that is to say to modern pressures in modern actions, those cartridges can easily run with many of their "modern" peers or beat them outright.

 

[Varberger757]

As previously mentioned, and unlike the 8mm, some of the other old mauser cartridges such as 7x57 and 6.5x55 benefit greatly from the availability of modern bullets. Loaded to their potential, that is to say to modern pressures in modern actions, those cartridges can easily run with many of their "modern" peers or beat them outright.

Nothing fits together! In Europe the 7x57 has unfortunately almost disappeared in strong contrast to the here on this site permanently reduced 8x57IS! The 6,5x55 is only in a strong position up here in Scandinavia. The 7x64 is much, much stronger and superior in all terms as the 7x57 and widely preferred in Central Europe. 6,5 x 57, 6,5x65 RWS, etc., or what's however are more popular than the 6,5x55.
It's astonishing to see that people try to downwrite the 8mm all the time, but on the other hand there are more and more American producers coming with new products. lightbulb Both ready cartridges as from Hornady (4x), Rem., Barnes Vortex, Winchester and, and. Good BC - bullets from all major US - companies. Why so? Because it's obsolete and no market? Just as a reminder, the 8mmS/.323 was the first bullet getting a ballistically modern shape, and that in 1935. It was the so called 1935sS bullet and was a secret of state. sS means "schweres Spitzgeschoss" = heavy spitzer. The calotte was and is still modern, and was the first with boattail (Torpedoheck) and constructed for fighting - ranges for more than 2 km while firing indirectly with MG 34 and 42 in a heavy machinegun configuration. It was also the German standard rifleround during WWII.