Is an ELD-M basically just a tipped berger?

I'm not sure how the Scirocco is relevant to my post? But you're missing the point of my post.
Don't take this the wrong way but leading discourse with self aggrandizing platitudes is never going to convince anyone of the point you're trying to convey. It will only further their disposition. Regardless, my point was about the shooters. Not the bullets. We've hashed that out before. I hope you grab a trophy bull this year and have a great hunting season.
Nothing self aggrandizing about it. You made the challenge and I answered with fact.

Since the early 90's I've made a study of terminal performance of all sorts of bullets on game.

As a rancher, outfitter, and hunter I've had endless opportunities to shoot animals at all ranges with an assortment of rounds and bullets and examined the results of how those bullets performed when we recover the animals.

Hunting bullets are not all designed to perform the same, some give more consistent performance than others and none of them are the ideal bullet for every application.

Bonded and compartmentalized bullets are made to penetrate tough hides, heavy muscle and bone without losing the majority of their mass. Bullets in this class would be the Accubond, Interbond, and Partition.

Bullets like the NBT and Hornady SSST are not made with the same purpose in mind, they are designed to give optimal performance in thinner and softer tissue like a behind the shoulder double lung shot.

By design they penetrate a few inches and then fragment violently. The higher the impact velocity the more violently they react.

Understanding how a bullet is designed to perform and then placing the shoot accordingly gives you the best odds of success and the least reliance on luck.
 
Nothing self aggrandizing about it. You made the challenge and I answered with fact.
What challenge? You started going on a tangent about the scirocco II randomly. Everything you've stated has been anecdotal. Or the fact that you called out thousands of shooters that you know nothing about as being less experienced or versed than yourself? Writing them off "wanna be snipers" for not adhering to your subjective thought as to how animals should be killed. Lol you're something else.

As for your study show me a publication or quit touting anecdotal evidence from your experience as if it's gospel.
 
What challenge? You started going on a tangent about the scirocco II randomly. Everything you've stated has been anecdotal. Or the fact that you called out thousands of shooters that you know nothing about as being less experienced or versed than yourself? Writing them off "wanna be snipers" for not adhering to your subjective thought as to how animals should be killed. Lol you're something else.

As for your study show me a publication or quit touting anecdotal evidence from your experience as if it's gospel.
No need to lie.

There was nothing random about the example of the Scriocco II failing, the discussion was about picking the right bullet for the job and the Sirocco as I found was not the right bullet for the job.

Another big part of the discussion is making clean, quick, kills as opposed to wounding due to either improper shot placement or a poor choice in bullets.

I'd had several other incidents where for seemingly no explainable reason the Sirocco's failed to perform as expected with high velocity impacts but that one sealed it.

I don't sell bullets, I don't even sell hunts anymore so it's not like I have anything to gain here, I share my knowledge and experience with others to help them avoid making the same mistakes I have over five decades of hunting game with a rifle on two continents.

You're as entitled to anyone to an "opinion" but the value of your opinion is only equal to your experience. Don't confuse that opinion with facts and don't attribute things to me I've never said. The other part of the value of your opinion is your honesty and when you have to lie like that to make an argument you have no credibility at all.
 
As for your study show me a publication or quit touting anecdotal evidence from your experience as if it's gospel.
 
How about some pics?
If you insist.
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Those would be a few of my nicer trophies.
 
No need to lie.

There was nothing random about the example of the Scriocco II failing, the discussion was about picking the right bullet for the job and the Sirocco as I found was not the right bullet for the job.

Another big part of the discussion is making clean, quick, kills as opposed to wounding due to either improper shot placement or a poor choice in bullets.

I'd had several other incidents where for seemingly no explainable reason the Sirocco's failed to perform as expected with high velocity impacts but that one sealed it.

I don't sell bullets, I don't even sell hunts anymore so it's not like I have anything to gain here, I share my knowledge and experience with others to help them avoid making the same mistakes I have over five decades of hunting game with a rifle on two continents.

You're as entitled to anyone to an "opinion" but the value of your opinion is only equal to your experience. Don't confuse that opinion with facts and don't attribute things to me I've never said. The other part of the value of your opinion is your honesty and when you have to lie like that to make an argument you have no credibility at all.
Excuse me for paraphrasing. But yeah you basically equated people who used match bullets for hunting game to people who thought they were snipers for hitting a pie plate 3 out of 6 times in post #36. Which is what the entirety of my point has been about. Not really the bullets. As i said we're not going to agree there.

I've not mentioned the scirocco once. I wasn't referencing the bullet. I think you have your replies confused with another member? I was talking about the eld m originally. Unless your point was to illustrate the bullet failing to insist that ELD Ms will fail which i didn't pick up if so.

A forum post is not a publication that's peer reviewed.

But look i digress. I know you hunt more than most and that is why I respect your opinion albeit it disagree with you on some things. I. E. This very instance.
 
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Excuse me for paraphrasing. But yeah you basically equated people who used match bullets for hunting game to people who thought they were snipers for hitting a pie plate 3 out of 6 times in post #36.

I've not mentioned the scirocco once. I wasn't referencing the bullet? I was using the eld m as my example and is what i have experience with? I think you have your replies confused with another member? I was talking about the eld m originally.

A forum post is not a publication that's peer reviewed.

But look i digress. I know you hunt more than most and that is why I respect your opinion albeit it disagree with you on some things. I. E. This very instance.
I never said any such thing.

What I did say is that the average hunter doesn't know squat about much of anything other than buying a box of factory ammo and pulling the trigger and if they can put 3 rounds in a six or eight inch pie plate at 100yds they're happy.

If they pull the trigger and the animal dies, it was a perfect shot, if it's not there when the dust clears, they must have missed or the bullet failed to perform.

My forum posts contemporaneous with my hunt are the notes you asked for and I linked directly to the same story about the Bluer Wildebeest. Note, that in seven years the story hasn't changed either.

Again, it's not a matter of opinion, the ELD-M is neither designed nor recommended by Hornady as a hunting bullet whereas the ELD-X is.

You may use them with great success on one, two, or fifty animals, but the odds it won't perform are much higher than they would be if you chose the ELD-X.

Lot's of people choose to shoot bullets I won't shoot or have and found to be lacking for various reasons, that's their choice. I'm not berating anyone for those choices or calling them bad names for making them.

I was fortunate, I had a lot of opportunities and open doors that allowed me an option of some great professional careers in science and medicine after I got out of the service, I just chose a different route, one that allowed me to hunt over 300 days a year and still make something resembling a decent living and it gives me a huge knowledge base to work from that very few hunters will ever have particularly with respect to the terminal performance of bullets.
 
My mistake if i took it that way but it sure reads that way considering the response to the quote. I agree you are fortunate my friend. Have a good one.
 
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If your going to the range to punch paper use a target bullet. If your going after game use a hunting bullet. If your rifle don't have the fortitude at distance then get a bigger rifle. But by all means use the appropriate bullet for what your going to shoot.
 
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This is a three shot group from 400 yards with match bullets in my hunting rifle. Two in the bottom and one up and to the right. That's about a 1" group about 1" from point of aim. I harvest several animals a year and used to shoot accubonds. I switched to the 147 eld m in my 6.5-284 and have no issues yet. Can I? You bet! As someone stated earlier there is no perfect bullet for every occasion yet. Pick one that fits your hunting style and application and go hunt and enjoy Mother Nature. This is the problem with today's world everyone is questioning everything and if it's not there way it's wrong. We have enough pressure coming from different angles and groups. If it shoots well in your gun and you're comfortable then hunt with it. I can honestly tell you these "match" bullets have put animals down faster and quicker than any "hunting" bullet I've used. That's what it's all about for me. Quick humane harvests. Until I have a problem or my group of buddies have a problem I'm going to keep using them.
 
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I never said any such thing.

What I did say is that the average hunter doesn't know squat about much of anything other than buying a box of factory ammo and pulling the trigger and if they can put 3 rounds in a six or eight inch pie plate at 100yds they're happy.

If they pull the trigger and the animal dies, it was a perfect shot, if it's not there when the dust clears, they must have missed or the bullet failed to perform.

My forum posts contemporaneous with my hunt are the notes you asked for and I linked directly to the same story about the Bluer Wildebeest. Note, that in seven years the story hasn't changed either.

Again, it's not a matter of opinion, the ELD-M is neither designed nor recommended by Hornady as a hunting bullet whereas the ELD-X is.

You may use them with great success on one, two, or fifty animals, but the odds it won't perform are much higher than they would be if you chose the ELD-X.

Lot's of people choose to shoot bullets I won't shoot or have and found to be lacking for various reasons, that's their choice. I'm not berating anyone for those choices or calling them bad names for making them.

I was fortunate, I had a lot of opportunities and open doors that allowed me an option of some great professional careers in science and medicine after I got out of the service, I just chose a different route, one that allowed me to hunt over 300 days a year and still make something resembling a decent living and it gives me a huge knowledge base to work from that very few hunters will ever have particularly with respect to the terminal performance of bullets.
If you had to pick one caliber for lower 48 what caliber and bullet would be your choice? If someone didn't have the money to have a "deer" rifle and an "elk" rifle or an "Africa" rifle.
 
If you had to pick one caliber for lower 48 what caliber and bullet would be your choice? If someone didn't have the money to have a "deer" rifle and an "elk" rifle or an "Africa" rifle.
That's a tough one for sure.

The 7mm STW to me is the best all around choice for a single gun hunter ballistically but it's an orphan and it can be difficult to even find brass, much less loaded ammo for it.

The 300wm is the most versatile of all common rounds shot in the country today. You can load it light and fast for varmints, with 220-240gr solids for dangerous game like big bears or with 180-200gr expanding bullets for medium and large game like deer, elk, and moose.

It however I think is going to continue fading into history with the advent of the 300PRC which gives superior performance.

That being the case I'd probably pick the 300PRC shooting 180-200gr Accubond or Accubond LR's.

The Accubond has a lower BC but is a much tougher bullet for punching through tough hides, snow, mud, big bones etc but the ABLR has considerably higher bc's even though it will not penetrate as well as it's predecessor at shorter ranges with higher velocity/higher energy impacts.

The Hornady Interbond is my preferred bonded bullet but it appears they are too busy with all their new whiz bang bullets and rounds to put any effort into even producing them on a regular basis if at all anymore and even after 20 years of people like myself asking them for heavier for caliber offerings in 6.5, 7mm, and .30 cal they just aren't budging.

Then we get into mono's. There are some very good mono's on the market and sooner rather than later all federal and probably state lands are going to be restricted "no lead" you need a reliable mono in the mix as well. For me, the choice in mono's hands down is the Peregrine VLR4 with the Barnes LRX and TTSX following closely behind. Hammer Mono's are building a good reputation as well but I personally have seen too much inconsistency in open Hollow Points to be willing to trust them for my own use. Lot's of people have had a whole lot of success with all three.

If I were forced by circumstances however I would not be afraid to shoot any of them if that were all that was available. There's some others on the market I've not had as much luck with such as the Hornady GMX which for me at least just hasn't shown to expand reliably so I quit shooting them.

There's one other that bears entry into the discussion and that's the Federal Trophy Bonded bullet. I've shot a few of them with great results but not enough to swear by them and I've never been able to buy them as a component to load and experiment with.

If you gave me two choices of bullet I'd stick with one of the above bonded bullets for the reasons stated for large and dangerous game and something like the Hornady SST for lighter, thin skinned game like deer and Pronghorn Antelope to shoot from my slower cartridges like the .260 Rem. Lower impact velocities require a different type of more frangible/rapidly expanding bullet to give the best performance. The SST has been the most reliable for me in that category of bullet. I shot a lot of Nosler ballistic tips many years ago and found it to be a little too frangible and explosive for my needs but a lot of folks find great success with that bullet especially on deer shooting those "double lung" type shots where there's little or no chance of hitting anything particularly hard but shooting a whole lot of hogs with them I wasn't nearly as happy with them as I was the Accubond or Interbond.

So to narrow it down finally.

If limited to one gun, one bullet, 300wm shooting Interbond, Accubond, or Accubond LR for practicality's sake, but my go to bullet for everything is the Peregrine VLR4 because it's the most predictably consistent bullet I've ever shot in anything from the .260 Rem to .300RUM to the .375 Ruger. The only problem with Peregrines is they aren't always readily available.

I've reached out to the owner of the company though to see if I can help him make them more readily available here in the US but we'll have to see.
 
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