Is an ELD-M basically just a tipped berger?

[OldElkHunter1961]

I see your point but sometimes even the "designed for hunting" bullets can fail.

Nothing in life is fool proof. But with the number of uncontrolled variables already involved in hunting why start off at a deficit with the only piece of your entire assemblage of gear that actually touches the animal? Your chosen bullet gets the final vote. Yes, hunting bullets can and do fail. It's seldom. When they do it's more often than not our failure. We pick the wrong bullet for the application. Or, we fail to fatally place it in the subject animal. No bullet will make a 6.5CM or .17 Rem a 1760 yard polar bear killer. Need more energy to make a given bullet open at distance? Make it go faster. E will always equal M C(2). You can't fool physics.

 

[Calvin45]

If you put it in the right spot like through the heart or spine that's not going to be a problem.

I'd already replied to this but, at the risk of beating a dead horse, that's no more correct than saying to just avoid hitting bone with a frangible bullet. Whether we're using a Barnes tsx or an eld m, we must consider our shot placement relative to our bullet construction. But that's no less true for hunting bullets is all I'm saying.

 

[tooth doc]

The question is why would you choose to shoot a target bullet knowing there's a much higher probability that it will either blow up shallow horribly wounding an animal or pencil through when we have better options available.

If we were starving and hunting for food and had no other choice it would be a completely different equation.

I feel like we owe the game we seek the quickest and most humane death we can give them.

amen to this

 

[JWhitty]

Shot a deer cross hollow (140-ish yds) w/ my suppressed Howa 6.5 Grendel. 123gr ELD-M, granted BLACK was the only ammo I could find during these times I was satisfied with the performance. Deer never knew it was hit, quarter size in and out....she never knew she was dead. Walked 10 ft. ....done.

Also....I snuck it between ribs and didn't drill shoulder. So I can't vouch for any type of "toughness" like the interlocks I run in my 7mm08

 

[C.Fisher]

Although hornady has the ELD-X for hunting all the law enforcement ammo uses match bullets. For when you can afford for something to get back up maybe?!

 

[C.Fisher]

Been researching these bullets a fair amount. I've already killed a decent amount with bergers, but the ELD-M's have peaked my interest lately also. It seems like their construction is very similar, except for the tip on the ELD-M. I think the tip on the ELD-M may make expansion just a hair quicker at closer ranges, but aid in the expansion, and more importantly, consistent expansion, at longer ranges.

I've been looking specifically at the 225 ELD-M as an option for my 300 NMI. They are readily available and have a higher BC than the 230 Hybrid Bergers.

Curious if this makes sense to anyone haha? Or if anyone has used both for a comparison? Or even specifically, used the 225 ELD-M as of late for killing deer & elk.

Check out long range hunting group on youtube. He uses almost exclusively match bullets and does alot of real life tests,he loves eldm's

 

[WiscGunner]

I think it is important to remember not all bullets in a lineup perform the same.

 

[Calvin45]

I think it is important to remember not all bullets in a lineup perform the same.

Very true. The 180 Nosler ballistic tip is a whole different animal than the 168 in the same 30 caliber, waaaay stouter and deeper penetrating than a mere 12 grains of bullet weight would explain.

 

[Raudy707]

I am curious how you sight in for the two different cartridges you use? Do you try to match velocity or what do you do with your sight in ti make your two cartridge system work?

I sight in the Bergers or whatever my long range bullet is for whatever my zero is in my case 200 yds. Then I will start playing with the other bullets. Lets use my 270 wsm for example. The 170 grain Bergers at 3020 fps hit 2.5 inches high at 100 yds. I settled on 2.5 inches because I found that the 140 grain Barnes TSX at 3200 fps hit bullseyes at 100 yds. It makes no difference to me so long as the vertical spread is 12 and 6 o'clock. I never try my close range bullet off to the left or right by more than 1/2 moa. My 25-06 is opposite. The 115 Berger hits 1.2 inches high at 100 yds or dead on at 200 yds. The 92 grain Hammer is 3 inches high at 100 yds but dead on 12 o'clock above the Bergers. Those Hammers are nearly 3500 fps so you just hold on fur out to 350 yds. My 280 AI shoots 160 grain Accubonds and 175 grain Elite hunters in the same holes. It's some extra loading bench time but I always find a combination. I don't know if that answered your question. 300 mag is 208 Eld-m and 180 grain Nosler Partition's. I never know what bullet is going to work. Pretty cool though. If I want to blow through an elks shoulder or frontal angle I have zero hesitation. Point and shoot. 95% of hunting shots are 400 yds and under for me.

 

[Tidus56]

I sight in the Bergers or whatever my long range bullet is for whatever my zero is in my case 200 yds. Then I will start playing with the other bullets. Lets use my 270 wsm for example. The 170 grain Bergers at 3020 fps hit 2.5 inches high at 100 yds. I settled on 2.5 inches because I found that the 140 grain Barnes TSX at 3200 fps hit bullseyes at 100 yds. It makes no difference to me so long as the vertical spread is 12 and 6 o'clock. I never try my close range bullet off to the left or right by more than 1/2 moa. My 25-06 is opposite. The 115 Berger hits 1.2 inches high at 100 yds or dead on at 200 yds. The 92 grain Hammer is 3 inches high at 100 yds but dead on 12 o'clock above the Bergers. Those Hammers are nearly 3500 fps so you just hold on fur out to 350 yds. My 280 AI shoots 160 grain Accubonds and 175 grain Elite hunters in the same holes. It's some extra loading bench time but I always find a combination. I don't know if that answered your question. 300 mag is 208 Eld-m and 180 grain Nosler Partition's. I never know what bullet is going to work. Pretty cool though. If I want to blow through an elks shoulder or frontal angle I have zero hesitation. Point and shoot. 95% of hunting shots are 400 yds and under for me.

That's what I was figuring was something along that line and I think it's a cool idea. That would allow me or use hammers and bergers together I like it!

 

[WildRose]

I see your point but sometimes even the "designed for hunting" bullets can fail.

Can yes, but are much less likely to if you're buying premium bullets/ammunition designed for that purpose.

Our major (and some minor) bullet manufacturers spend collectively many millions of dollars designing and perfecting the most predictable and consistent bullets they can possibly make.

Terminal performance is simply not a consideration when manufacturing a target bullet but it's a huge part of the equation when producing a bullet for hunting.

 

[WildRose]

My point is while the accubond is a wonderful bullet, I think it's an oversimplification to just say match bullets are terrible this day in age. My experience is just opposite of that.

I didn't say they are terrible, I said they are not designed as a hunting bullet with terminal performance in mind.

Typically we see two designs in target bullets, one which is very thinly jacketed and designed to completely disintegrate on impact and the other is a very heavy jacket designed to pencil through the target.

Neither provides the kind of terminal performance necessary to ensure clean, quick, humane kills on game animals.

Hammers and skill saws are both great tools to have around building a house but while it's possible to drive a nail with a skillsaw I'm not going to choose that tool for the job nor will I use my hammer to cut through a 2x4 even though I could if I was intent enough on doing it.

It's just about picking the best tool for a given job and not all tools are appropriate for any given job.

 

[WildRose]

Rose you know I'm a fan but there are 30+ pages on the hide of SMK kills of people that are incredible shots. I think it's a bit disingenuous to paint a broad brush like that. Most folks that reload their own ammo aren't remotely comparable to your average hunter, who walks into sportsmans and takes advice of the counter guy as gospel.

To my second point because this discussion will be beat to death till the end of time. I honestly think either will work. I've been hunting with match bullets for the last 10 years, granted only on medium size game. I think we're forgetting that technology has advanced bullet and jacket design so much that match bullets are pretty viable for hunting game. I say this all the time and you've reiterated on it in this thread, but poke holes where they need to go and the animal will go down. I'm not saying hunt elk with an RDF. But the ELD has proven to be completely formidable for hunting game. The bullet design is eerily similar to it's hunting cousin the ELD-X, jacket thickness and expansion void withstanding.

Barbour creek has ample video comparison's at extended range. Now I'm not advocating shooting elk at 900yds with a 6.5CM. But I wouldn't fret to much about taking my 180gr ELDm out of my 7 Sherman Short for an elk, least I have yet to recover a bullet from any whitetail in the past 3 years from 330yds to 641yds. Through and through it's been a monster. I know elk are different. My point is while the accubond is a wonderful bullet, I think it's an oversimplification to just say match bullets are terrible this day in age. My experience is just opposite of that.

Considering that's an extremely low energy impact at about 1,200 ft-lbs that video doesn't make for a very good argument unless of course you're going to limit the use of the ELD-M to sub 2000fps impacts.

Shattering the dried out piece of shoulder blade is not the least bit impressive since you can accomplish the same thing with a .22 Short. Dried out bones are very brittle.

Chances are a high shoulder shot with that bullet hitting the same exact spot on a deer or elk isn't going to result in a clean kill, instead, producing a wounded animal that runs off which may or may not be lost.

With high velocity impacts there's just too much likelihood of the bullet disintegrating without penetrating for me to use them particularly since we have numerous options of bullets that have very similar in flight characteristics with better/more predictable terminal performance.

 

[Calvin45]

I didn't say they are terrible, I said they are not designed as a hunting bullet with terminal performance in mind.

Typically we see two designs in target bullets, one which is very thinly jacketed and designed to completely disintegrate on impact and the other is a very heavy jacket designed to pencil through the target.

Neither provides the kind of terminal performance necessary to ensure clean, quick, humane kills on game animals.

Hammers and skill saws are both great tools to have around building a house but while it's possible to drive a nail with a skillsaw I'm not going to choose that tool for the job nor will I use my hammer to cut through a 2x4 even though I could if I was intent enough on doing it.

It's just about picking the best tool for a given job and not all tools are appropriate for any given job.

Fair enough, I get your perspective on this though I'm sure we simply don't agree on everything which really isn't a problem I don't think.

I will say, even as i defend the use of "target bullets" as sometimes being even superior to "hunting bullets" at long range, my experience with target bullets for hunting is with a .300 win mag on whitetail deer haha…pretty much any expanding bullet out of that gun will very quickly kill on such game.

For elk, if I ever get drawn, I do plan on using some federal 180 trophy bonded tips I've been saving for a rainy (or elk-y) day, or some 210 ablrs I've also been saving…or I'll go real old school and slam them with some real blunt looking 250 grain hawk round noses. And I am of the opinion that exit wounds are a good thing.

I just don't see how you can dismiss dozens of good experiences with "target bullets" as having gotten lucky and gotten away with it that time, and a single bad experience with a "hunting bullet"'as being operator error. Seems to ignore the rule and cling to the exception logically, i can't argue with people's firsthand experience either way (and won't argue with yours either, no doubt it much more expansive than my own and I acknowledge that).