Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
My main goal is to just keep moving fast enough that the buzzards don't land and start pecking me.
Getting High on VO2Max
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My main goal is to just keep moving fast enough that the buzzards don't land and start pecking me.
Strick9
Well-Known Member
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- Nov 16, 2007
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I actually quit drinking beer for 4 months!!!!! to get ready for my trip,,and walked uphill everyday..Lost 15 lbs..worked out..felt like superman,,Had to wait on my #%#*@# guide the whole freakin time,,Just take your time move slow, be confident and thorough,,and you should have oppurtunities,,always catch your breath before taking shot...No need to kill yourself excercising just be healthy...
Interesting thing is.... The oxygen concentration is the same at any altitude. The change of pressure is what makes breathing difficult. 21% at sea level, 21% at any altitude...
Sorry, had to dime in from a Respiratory Therapist point of view. Great post though BB.
PA02= (Pb-PH20)Fio2-PaCO2(1.25)
Equation not really important if you take my word on the above, but if anyone is interested I can explain further.
Well I already have the itch....
Barometric pressure decreases with an increase in altitude. Density of gases surrounding the earth decreases with increased altitude. When this happens the partial pressure exerted by each gas also decreases.
As for the equation......
Sea level
PAO2=(760mmHg-47mmHg).21-40(1.25)
PAO2=99.73
With altitude, remember Pb (barometric pressure) decreases.
PAO2=(600mmHg-47mmHg).21-40(1.25)
PAO2=66.13
Further, PAO2 is the partial pressure of oxygen in the alveoli. Diffusion is the passive movement of gas molecules from an area of high partial pressure to an area of low partial partial until both areas are equal in pressure.
Sorry, had to dime in from a Respiratory Therapist point of view. Great post though BB.
PA02= (Pb-PH20)Fio2-PaCO2(1.25)
Equation not really important if you take my word on the above, but if anyone is interested I can explain further.
Well I already have the itch....
Barometric pressure decreases with an increase in altitude. Density of gases surrounding the earth decreases with increased altitude. When this happens the partial pressure exerted by each gas also decreases.
As for the equation......
Sea level
PAO2=(760mmHg-47mmHg).21-40(1.25)
PAO2=99.73
With altitude, remember Pb (barometric pressure) decreases.
PAO2=(600mmHg-47mmHg).21-40(1.25)
PAO2=66.13
Further, PAO2 is the partial pressure of oxygen in the alveoli. Diffusion is the passive movement of gas molecules from an area of high partial pressure to an area of low partial partial until both areas are equal in pressure.
Sooooo, is blood doping illegal? Or is it just illegal (unallowed) for competitive sports? What are the risks and side effects of blood doping?
Just to clarify, I'm not personally interested, just curious. I live at 6200 feet and play at 7500+ feet and have other limiting issues besides VO2 Max (like the spare tire I insist on carrying every where I go).
Just to clarify, I'm not personally interested, just curious. I live at 6200 feet and play at 7500+ feet and have other limiting issues besides VO2 Max (like the spare tire I insist on carrying every where I go).
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
Well that is what happens when an engineer decides to discuss the biological sciences. Things get a little goofy.
Apparently in your field, "concentration" means something different than in mine. In water, we talk about "concentration" as mass per unit volume. Whereas from the limited reading I did last night, the people who specialize in human physiology talk about "concentration" as the ratio of substances which is what you are saying.
Anyway, I am just happy people read and think about it before going hunting.
Rymart
The last I knew blood doping was only illegal for competition. Blood doping is basically a transfusion of your red blood cells. However, it was not clear if it was effective. I got a PM from another physiologist who said that the oxygen transfer was more affected by things other than the number of red blood cells. So once again I conclude that it is not good to take medical advice from an engineer.
Most importantly, BB I thought what you wrote was great. As far as concentrations, I don't know if i'm even smart enough to dig too deep into that sort of thing. I just know that our earths O2 percentage was 21%, Nitrogen 78%, Argon .98%, Carbon dioxide .03%. That doesn't change with altitude. But the density changes.
As far as blood doping, it won't help an out of shape person keep up with an in shape person up a mountain at altitude. It does help the body's oxygen carrying capability, only by increasing the number of Hemoglobin. But if the body already has an adequate number of hemoglobin than it really isn't going to help too much. Would it help an anemic person, well heck ya!
Further to make people more confused, or understand.....
The advantage of an increased oxygen carrying capacity in blood doping is offset by the increased viscosity of the blood when the hematocrit reaches about 55-60 percent. Because of the increased viscosity of the blood, a greater driving pressure is needed to maintain a given flow. The work of the right and left ventricles of the heart must increase in order to generate the pressure needed to overcome the increased viscosity. Basically leading to heart problems.
As far as blood doping, it won't help an out of shape person keep up with an in shape person up a mountain at altitude. It does help the body's oxygen carrying capability, only by increasing the number of Hemoglobin. But if the body already has an adequate number of hemoglobin than it really isn't going to help too much. Would it help an anemic person, well heck ya!
Further to make people more confused, or understand.....
The advantage of an increased oxygen carrying capacity in blood doping is offset by the increased viscosity of the blood when the hematocrit reaches about 55-60 percent. Because of the increased viscosity of the blood, a greater driving pressure is needed to maintain a given flow. The work of the right and left ventricles of the heart must increase in order to generate the pressure needed to overcome the increased viscosity. Basically leading to heart problems.
Most importantly, BB I thought what you wrote was great. As far as concentrations, I don't know if i'm even smart enough to dig too deep into that sort of thing. I just know that our earths O2 percentage was 21%, Nitrogen 78%, Argon .98%, Carbon dioxide .03%. That doesn't change with altitude. But the density changes.
As far as blood doping, it won't help an out of shape person keep up with an in shape person up a mountain at altitude. It does help the body's oxygen carrying capability, only by increasing the number of Hemoglobin. But if the body already has an adequate number of hemoglobin than it really isn't going to help too much. Would it help an anemic person, well heck ya!
Further to make people more confused, or understand.....
The advantage of an increased oxygen carrying capacity in blood doping is offset by the increased viscosity of the blood when the hematocrit reaches about 55-60 percent. Because of the increased viscosity of the blood, a greater driving pressure is needed to maintain a given flow. The work of the right and left ventricles of the heart must increase in order to generate the pressure needed to overcome the increased viscosity. Basically leading to heart problems.
As far as blood doping, it won't help an out of shape person keep up with an in shape person up a mountain at altitude. It does help the body's oxygen carrying capability, only by increasing the number of Hemoglobin. But if the body already has an adequate number of hemoglobin than it really isn't going to help too much. Would it help an anemic person, well heck ya!
Further to make people more confused, or understand.....
The advantage of an increased oxygen carrying capacity in blood doping is offset by the increased viscosity of the blood when the hematocrit reaches about 55-60 percent. Because of the increased viscosity of the blood, a greater driving pressure is needed to maintain a given flow. The work of the right and left ventricles of the heart must increase in order to generate the pressure needed to overcome the increased viscosity. Basically leading to heart problems.
daveyj
Member
Rule of thumb we have always used is train hard in low elevations, and live and rest in higher elevations.
This seems to work for me. The idea is that you get a more thorough workout from a muscular standpoint, and are then forced to recover in a higher altitude environment. This isnt easy for folks that live at MSL.
This seems to work for me. The idea is that you get a more thorough workout from a muscular standpoint, and are then forced to recover in a higher altitude environment. This isnt easy for folks that live at MSL.
johngfoster
Active Member
Well said, daveyj.
Physical fitness at altitude can be tough to achieve if you don't live at altitude. Professional cycling is one of the most demanding disciplines out there for physical fitness. The champions all have high VO2 max's. Just look at Lance Armstrong's numbers. Bottom line is there is no free lunch. You have to train and develop your ability to transfer O2 from you lungs into your bloodstream. The ultimate endpoint is the delivery of O2 to your muscles. A number of factors come into play here: cardiac output (the more blood that gets pumped through your muscles means more O2 gets delivered) and hematocrit or hemoglobin concentration (the number of "box-cars" you have to carry the O2) are probably the biggest of many other factors.
One technique some professional cyclists use is to sleep in an "altitude tent". They live and train at sea level, but sleep in a tent that partially sucks the air out, to lower the air pressure to the equivalent of a high mountain altitude. While they sleep, the body is stimulated to produce more red blood cells and they increase the number of "box-cars" they have. These are also quite expensive.
All this won't do you much good if you don't have the pump to push them around with though. And you would want to do this under the supervision of a doctor as well. If the hematocrit gets much over 60%, the blood can start turning to sludge, and the risk of heart attack or other organ damage becomes a big issue.
If you have COPD or emphysema, this can be a limiting factor no matter how fit you are. It can cripple you literally. You loose valuable surface area in your lung tissue for oxygen exchange. Thus you don't get the O2 into the blood stream.
Bottom line: if you want to have fitness at altitude, you still need to train. Just train smarter.
Physical fitness at altitude can be tough to achieve if you don't live at altitude. Professional cycling is one of the most demanding disciplines out there for physical fitness. The champions all have high VO2 max's. Just look at Lance Armstrong's numbers. Bottom line is there is no free lunch. You have to train and develop your ability to transfer O2 from you lungs into your bloodstream. The ultimate endpoint is the delivery of O2 to your muscles. A number of factors come into play here: cardiac output (the more blood that gets pumped through your muscles means more O2 gets delivered) and hematocrit or hemoglobin concentration (the number of "box-cars" you have to carry the O2) are probably the biggest of many other factors.
One technique some professional cyclists use is to sleep in an "altitude tent". They live and train at sea level, but sleep in a tent that partially sucks the air out, to lower the air pressure to the equivalent of a high mountain altitude. While they sleep, the body is stimulated to produce more red blood cells and they increase the number of "box-cars" they have. These are also quite expensive.
All this won't do you much good if you don't have the pump to push them around with though. And you would want to do this under the supervision of a doctor as well. If the hematocrit gets much over 60%, the blood can start turning to sludge, and the risk of heart attack or other organ damage becomes a big issue.
If you have COPD or emphysema, this can be a limiting factor no matter how fit you are. It can cripple you literally. You loose valuable surface area in your lung tissue for oxygen exchange. Thus you don't get the O2 into the blood stream.
Bottom line: if you want to have fitness at altitude, you still need to train. Just train smarter.
Coues Sniper
Well-Known Member
Along those lines, one way to train and "cheat" is to do your aerobic training while wearing a snorkel. Maybe I'm just young (read: stupid) enough that it sounds like a good idea
but it does restrict your O2 flow and get the heart rate going and somewhat resembles training at high altitude. Watch your heart rate carefully however TUCK
Member
HIIT (high intensity training)
After reading all the benefits of high intensity training (HIIT), I've recently given up my 2 or 3 mile runs. I now run quite fast for 2 minutes (I shoot for 92-96 % heartrate at end of each 2 min.), rest for 1 min, then repeat until I've ran 5 sometimes 6 fast intervals. the whole workout takes less than 20 min (including warmup) & really kicks my rear. I'm trying to get in the best shape possible for a CO backpack hunt in Sept. Does anyone know if this is the right approach or would the longer distances be better for endurance? I did a lot of 3 & 4 mile runs last year & still tired easily at 10,000+ feet. (@ age 46 I'm still refusing to believe my age had anything to do with it!) Any imput would be appreciated.
Thanks
Tuck
After reading all the benefits of high intensity training (HIIT), I've recently given up my 2 or 3 mile runs. I now run quite fast for 2 minutes (I shoot for 92-96 % heartrate at end of each 2 min.), rest for 1 min, then repeat until I've ran 5 sometimes 6 fast intervals. the whole workout takes less than 20 min (including warmup) & really kicks my rear. I'm trying to get in the best shape possible for a CO backpack hunt in Sept. Does anyone know if this is the right approach or would the longer distances be better for endurance? I did a lot of 3 & 4 mile runs last year & still tired easily at 10,000+ feet. (@ age 46 I'm still refusing to believe my age had anything to do with it!) Any imput would be appreciated.
Thanks
Tuck
Buffalobob
Well-Known Member
A mixture is best. You are not drag racing an elk.
Lung capacity and heart capacity must be matched with muscle capacity. Muscle capacity must the the correct combination of fast twitch and slow twitch fibers.
A varied routine will be the best. Two or three days of endurance and one day of HIT if your body will tolerate it. At your age when I was logging 60+ miles a week with a 20 mile run every weekend I could not tolerate more than one HIT a week and not tear my legs apart. I could turn sub 6 minute miles at that time. I once chased a herd of deer across the Valley Forge National Park. Then the Villanova girls cross country team came flying down the trail and I gave chase but they were just way to fast for me. They were faster than the deer and nearly as good looking.
Lung capacity and heart capacity must be matched with muscle capacity. Muscle capacity must the the correct combination of fast twitch and slow twitch fibers.
A varied routine will be the best. Two or three days of endurance and one day of HIT if your body will tolerate it. At your age when I was logging 60+ miles a week with a 20 mile run every weekend I could not tolerate more than one HIT a week and not tear my legs apart. I could turn sub 6 minute miles at that time. I once chased a herd of deer across the Valley Forge National Park. Then the Villanova girls cross country team came flying down the trail and I gave chase but they were just way to fast for me. They were faster than the deer and nearly as good looking.
TUCK
Member
I do get in at least 1 good leg workout a week, (sqauts, lunges, bench jumps) but that seems to make my legs feel like lead for about 3 days. It doesn't seem to bother when I do the HIIT runs but I can really notice it on slower longer runs. I'll keep mixing it up like you said. As long as it's difficult I should get some benefit from it. Sure wish I had a girls CC team to chase, my only motivators are mean dogs & I'm always on the wrong end of that chase!
ATH
Well-Known Member
It's not necessary to kill yourself with effort if you are not in shape to try and increase your VO2max through intensity. Most out-of-shapers will get plenty of useful gains in conditioning though an increased volume of easy running.
VO2max is not the most important parameter when hiking around the mountains...and for the out of shape can increase through easy running anyways. It is more important when you will be stressing yourself to your max (ie racing or trying to climb hills at the limit of your ability, a bad thing if you have to do it all day on a hunt). Rather, I'd recommend doing as much of an easier aerobic effort as you can (running, not walking) and getting in some hill work to strengthen your legs.
New runners do this all the time....hitting the intensity before they have the base work to support it. Much more important to get the base work and strength first and that will get you most of what you need for hunting purposes. Through volumes of easier running you will increase the mitochondria in your muscles, so they can use oxygen faster. Your heart will start to strengthen so it can pump blood more efficiently. Your muscles will strengthen and tendons toughen to handle the increased stress. I was decent enough to just miss out qualifying for the olympic trials in the marathon a couple years back so judge for yourself..
VO2max is not the most important parameter when hiking around the mountains...and for the out of shape can increase through easy running anyways. It is more important when you will be stressing yourself to your max (ie racing or trying to climb hills at the limit of your ability, a bad thing if you have to do it all day on a hunt). Rather, I'd recommend doing as much of an easier aerobic effort as you can (running, not walking) and getting in some hill work to strengthen your legs.
New runners do this all the time....hitting the intensity before they have the base work to support it. Much more important to get the base work and strength first and that will get you most of what you need for hunting purposes. Through volumes of easier running you will increase the mitochondria in your muscles, so they can use oxygen faster. Your heart will start to strengthen so it can pump blood more efficiently. Your muscles will strengthen and tendons toughen to handle the increased stress. I was decent enough to just miss out qualifying for the olympic trials in the marathon a couple years back so judge for yourself..
