"Custom" rifles

[adam32+P]

So what makes a custom rifle different than a semi custom and different than a factory rifle?

Most people think a custom rifle is buying an action from X manufacturer, a barrel from Y brand and a stock from Z brand. Then misc parts from others while having a random gunsmith screw it all together. Voila, "check out my custom rifle!"

Is it still a custom rifle if you do all of the above but buy a chambered/headspace barrel from manufacturer Y and spin it together yourself?

Companies like Bergara, Fierce, Christensen etc make their own actions, barrels, stocks etc in house but most don't call those custom rifles.

What is actually "custom" about a custom rifle? Maybe every once in a while one will have a slightly different chamber compared to a SAAMI spec reamer.

How does a mass produced Bergara action differ from a mass produced Defiance action?

If you take a Christensen Ridgeline and drop it into a McMillan is it now a "custom" rifle?

Rainy day boredom pondering.

 

[Mark37082]

Custom means selecting all your components and having a GS build the rifle to your specs IMO. There is a blurring of the lines when your are dealing with specialty rifle manufacturers such as Fierce, etc. The build to order manufacturers usually limit your options to an extent. The level of uniqueness has a little to do with it, but it really doesn't matter as long as the individual owner controls the build.

 

[Jud96]

I believe what makes a "custom" a custom and what makes the parts special is that one action, barrel, stock, etc is mass produced by the thousands and the other is made with more care, more options, and generally made to make it the best it can be not just the most efficient way. There's little to no options when going with one of the brand rifles mentioned above. Yeah you can pick from 10 chamberings or so, but you're stuck with the stock design, length of pull, stock weight, and accessories such as flush cups, pic rails, sling studs, etc. The barrel is the same way, you get an option for one barrel length, maybe two in some chamberings, a set twist rate and contour and a chamber that's not customizable at all. The action is either long or short depending on the chambering, again if you wanted a long action 300 WSM or 6.5 PRC, you're not getting it in a factory rifle. The actions are also generally lacking the attention to detail and overall quality a custom would have. Some are good, but they're most likely not all not inspected and checked over multiple times throughout each operation. And if they are, the tolerances and overall fit and finish won't be that of a custom. And even if the tolerances, fit and finish, and quality are great, you're still limited on options and what options the rifle the action is on will have.

Just a side note, we had an action from one of the above manufacturers come in for a rebarrel recently. The only lug contact being made was on the very outer edges of the bolt lugs because the lug abutments inside the action had a large radius in the corners from where the cutting tool had been worn out or was chipped and wasn't cutting the correct geometry. That wouldn't make it by in most custom action shops.

On top of just the quality of the parts, the flexibility with a custom, and the overall amount of options, most gunsmiths putting them together are going to do their best job because it's their name, reputation, livelihood, and passion going into the job. The gunsmith is going to check over the parts. He's going to make sure you get what you want and how you want it and most of them will fix the problems if there ever are any. He will have top level reamers, indicators, tooling, measuring devices, etc. You build a much closer relationship dealing with the owner/operator than with a customer support person at a large business. Overall I just think a custom rifle is more than a modified chambering or random bunch of aftermarket parts.

 

[Mikecr]

Most people think a custom rifle is buying an action from X manufacturer, a barrel from Y brand and a stock from Z brand. Then misc parts from others while having a random gunsmith screw it all together. Voila, "check out my custom rifle!"

Sounds custom to me.
I don't use a gunsmith to build anything.
A machinist built my action
A barrelmaker made my barrel blanks
A machinist made my reamers
A machinist/gun-builder/coating specialist finished my barrels
A wood craftsmen/stockmaker made my stock blank
A stock finisher finished my stock
The gun is my design, I assemble & make it what it will be (after around 2yrs of hell getting all this done).

With a barrel or trigger replacement on a factory gun, I don't see that as anymore custom than a scope choice led to.
Perhaps 'customized'.
And I agree that what most gunbuilders offer is not custom either.
No matter how good their guns are, they aren't always offering a 'custom' (per customer) build. And if they're really good, they won't.

 

[cohunt]

Careful with "gun smith's custom guns" -- I have a local gs that people look very highly on for custom rifles--- BUT he has an apprentice that works for him and that apprentice's work sucks-- but the gs still let's it go out the door---- I had problems with him 2 different times and I won't ever use that gs again.

 

[lancetkenyon]

To me:

Factory: Rem, Bergara, Fierce, CA, Win, Tikka, Savage, etc. Anything you can buy at the LGS. Adding a trigger, Pic rail or brake, still a factory rifle.

Upgraded factory: One of the above with a new aftermarket barrel, or stock.

Semi-custom: Taking a factory action like above (even if you buy the factory action new), and building off it. Action upgrades maybe, but new Barrel, stock, trigger, etc.

Custom: Starts with a full custom action like Defiance, Lone Peak, Kelbly, Terminus, Bat, Stiller, Curtis, Pierce, MPA, etc. Add aftermarket barrel, stock, trigger, etc. There are a lot of customs that are still made multiples of like GAP, SAC, etc. that are all the same, but made with aftermarket parts.

 

[vancewalker007]

>Most people think a custom rifle is buying an action from X manufacturer, a barrel from Y brand and a
>stock from Z brand. Then misc parts from others while having a random gunsmith screw it all together. >Voila, "check out my custom rifle!"

A good GS does a lot more than screw parts together. But yes, in general if you pick the trigger (weight setting/type), unchambered barrel, cartridge, action, scope scope mounts, stock/metal finishes, chamber layout, magazine type/size, stock type and fit finish (assuming its being made per your specs and not a canned stock), muzzle finish ie. crowned, threaded for brake or suppressor mount etc. I'd say that a full custom. Full in the sense that every aspect you can choose with parameters you applied your own.



>Is it still a custom rifle if you do all of the above but buy a chambered/headspace barrel from
>manufacturer Y and spin it together yourself?

I would call it semi custom because you had no control over the chamber cut, but that is splitlting hairs some.


>Companies like Bergara, Fierce, Christensen etc make their own actions, barrels, stocks etc in house but
>most don't call those custom rifles.

I would call the small volume specialized canned products like Proof, Fierce, Seekins, Cooper et el "High End Low Volume boutique Rifles. I believe most of these companies have custom shops that allow the creation of full custome rifles. I would not put Bergara or Christensen in this group as far as their canned rifles. I see these rifles like wines from small volume wineries. Makers like Gunwerks come much closer to true custom rifles because they allow several parameters to be selected but I don't think they will tweak a chamber out of SAAMI spec for you.


>What is actually "custom" about a custom rifle? Maybe every once in a while one will have a slightly
>different chamber compared to a SAAMI spec reamer.


All the various parameters and parts choices as discussed above; actions, triggers, stocks, barrels, chambers and all the params surrounding each of them. It can be fairly large combination of params.


>How does a mass produced Bergara action differ from a mass produced Defiance action?

First, the term "Mass Procduced" cannot equally be applied to the two companies. Bergara is likely churning out 2-3 times as many or maybe more actions a year than Defiance. They both will typically do their job as expected. The Defiance action is going to be made to tighter tolerances, better parts and likely as smooth or smoother. I have read about many issues with the Bergara centered around the firing pin mechanisms and the firing pin holes where the action would not go bang and required the firing pin to be fixed with a bushing to make it work. Also, I have read about extractor issues with the Bergara bolts. I have never read about any such issues with Defiance actions, but with the new ownership that may change haha.


>If you take a Christensen Ridgeline and drop it into a McMillan is it now a "custom" rifle?

I would call that semi custom. You took a canned barreled action/trigger and dropped it into a stock you chose with stock features you specified.


I think the biggest question is will an off the shelf rifle be accurate enough for a person's needs in the field or at the competition bench. This answer likely has even more variables than those custom rifle choices. I've seen a number of very accurate off the shelf rifles. They exist but in the past this was basically a roulette wheel spin chance of getting a good one. I would say the boutique makers have narrowed the distance in this area some plus some mass production makers seem to be doing pretty good. I've heard very good things about Weatherby and Browning lately. One of the biggest issues I run into with off the shelf rifles is the stock fit and handling in shooting positions. That translates to shootability and ultimately accuracy.


My favorite full custom has the following custom choices:

Proof Sendero Carbon Wrapped 26in 1:8 barrel

McMillan Game Hunter Carbon fiber stock, in a molded in color I picked, edge fill, cut to my specific length of pull, inletted for the action I selected, with the inlet drilled for pillars but no pillars installed, picatinny rail for bipod/tripod, and push button sling swivels

Defiance Deviant UltrLight XM length Action

Defiance XM length BDL hinged floor plate

Timney Calvin Elite 2-stage trigger with no bolt release set to 8 ounces and 16 ounces

Metal finish color I selected

Muzzle threaded for a brake or suppressor

Seekins lower 34mm rings

Chamber finished with a longer than SAAMI throat leade to fit a specific bullet such that the bullet base stays out of the powder column when in the lands

The fitment of the action, magazine and stock were aided by leaving out the pillars in the stock by McMillan so the GS could custom build pillars to tightly fit the action, magazine and stock together. This seems to make the action run rounds very smoothly as 22 big game animals being shot with no rifle cycling issues as well as hundreds of rounds being shot in load development and range prep can attest to.

 

[FEENIX]

To me:

Factory: Rem, Bergara, Fierce, CA, Win, Tikka, Savage, etc. Anything you can buy at the LGS. Adding a trigger, Pic rail or brake, still a factory rifle.

Upgraded factory: One of the above with a new aftermarket barrel, or stock.

Semi-custom: Taking a factory action like above (even if you buy the factory action new), and building off it. Action upgrades maybe, but new Barrel, stock, trigger, etc.

Custom: Starts with a full custom action like Defiance, Lone Peak, Kelbly, Terminus, Bat, Stiller, Curtis, Pierce, MPA, etc. Add aftermarket barrel, stock, trigger, etc. There are a lot of customs that are still made multiples of like GAP, SAC, etc. that are all the same, but made with aftermarket parts.

This!

 

[Jpron]

If I pick out the components for it, it's custom to me. If it's a rifle I can buy off a shelf it's not.

 

[Frank in the Laurels]

...just an extra few thousand $$$$$$...a few less thousandths on the caliper...both go bang, no animals vitals will ever know the difference being hit....

 

[Hand Skills]

So what makes a custom rifle different than a semi custom and different than a factory rifle?

Most people think a custom rifle is buying an action from X manufacturer, a barrel from Y brand and a stock from Z brand. Then misc parts from others while having a random gunsmith screw it all together. Voila, "check out my custom rifle!"

Is it still a custom rifle if you do all of the above but buy a chambered/headspace barrel from manufacturer Y and spin it together yourself?

Companies like Bergara, Fierce, Christensen etc make their own actions, barrels, stocks etc in house but most don't call those custom rifles.

What is actually "custom" about a custom rifle? Maybe every once in a while one will have a slightly different chamber compared to a SAAMI spec reamer.

How does a mass produced Bergara action differ from a mass produced Defiance action?

If you take a Christensen Ridgeline and drop it into a McMillan is it now a "custom" rifle?

Rainy day boredom pondering.

Language is kind of a fluid thing, and I think you have a handle on the meta - @lancetkenyon certainly cleared up any grey areas!

...but I am sensing something deeper here. Have you ever considered a 'bespoke' rifle, Adam?

A hand made action, just for you. A one of a kind stock made of cellulose via the 'stock removal' method, finished with an exotic lipid?

If you are on a spiritual quest for a rifle with a soul, consider a Hagn, perhaps;

HOME | HAGN RIFLES&ACTIONS

www.hagnriflesandactions.com

The mini action is especially nifty!

 

[adam32+P]

Language is kind of a fluid thing, and I think you have a handle on the meta - @lancetkenyon certainly cleared up any grey areas!

...but I am sensing something deeper here. Have you ever considered a 'bespoke' rifle, Adam?

A hand made action, just for you. A one of a kind stock made of cellulose via the 'stock removal' method, finished with an exotic lipid?

If you are on a spiritual quest for a rifle with a soul, consider a Hagn, perhaps;

HOME | HAGN RIFLES&ACTIONS

www.hagnriflesandactions.com

The mini action is especially nifty!

There ya go! That to me is a "custom" rifle. Handbuilt, one off parts made for one rifle.

I get the tighter tolerance argument for non-mass produced factory actions, but they are still produced on an assembly line, one is basically the same as the next one. Sure you might have an option for what style bolt fluting and coatings. But you can also flute, lighten, blueprint a Rem 700.

I just think some of these new "boutique" rifle manufacturers are starting to blur the line between custom and factory...and I don't think it's a bad thing. The differences between a $2,000 and $6,000 rifle is getting harder and harder to find.

 

[comfisherman]

Fit, finish and feel.

Can get that on some or at least most semi customs, but for a lot of us it's easier and sometimes cheaper to do a full custom.

*edit a little more info.

My own personal anecdote goes like this.

I'm 6'4" with heavy genetic kyphosis, my wing span is right around 6'9" with relatively large hands although probably normal sized for guys my height. The odd combo makes for long trigger stretch, low comb and long lop. Add to that my hunting is no longer in the wide open spaces of the west, it's mostly coastal alaska and now about 1/3rd the artic. Not a lot of stocks fit that bill, over the last 15+ years I've found 2 that work out of near 30 different designs. Both require special order and long lead times.

The need for low comb equals low rings, on a 90 degree throw on modern scope ocular diameters that means racking my usually cold fingers up against an ocular. Played with a browning enough to know 60 degree may be slightly less smooth but way easier on knuckles. But my stock preferences necessitate rem 700 platform.

Also like to shoot long over bore bullet cartridge combos, Wyatt mag boxes are my friend. I prefer hinged floor plate over adl and mags so that's harder to find these days in factory form. Add to that I usually opt for shorter than average barrel lengths than most factory guns.

Reality is by the time a factory gun gets re stocked with barrel tweaks the savings isn't profound. To get a bdl extended mag box long lop 60deg throw stubby barreled far shooting loud en boomer.... custom makes sense.

 

[nksmfamjp]

To me, it is all about the influence I had or could of had in the build.

If I buy a pile of parts and ship them off to be built, write a spec to be built or develop a spec by conversation to be built, those are all custom rifles. If I buy a package rifle that I can change up, that is still a custom.

In my mind, what makes it custom is that I can turn my shooting and hunting experience into a next level build.

To me, the most important part of the whole rifle is the chambering and how it will be cut. For now, I have not bought reamer, but I can see that I probably should be. That is really the only way to cut the same chamber twice, if that is important to you. I also like the controlled standard that something proprietary like the Sherman chambering are. I suspect a 28 Sherm Mag from 2 different gunsmiths are much closer than 2 28 Noslers.

After the chambering, I value the ergonomics a lot. When we get behind a rifle, it's ability to fit us an help us function at our highest level is a big deal. Just picking a stock without really digging into its dimensions is a waste of time. You really need to handle a lot of rifles and understand what dimensions you prefer!

The ability to select the chamber, stock and balance of a rifle are very important to me in custom.