Cheek Weld

[Boozer]

I have a Remington 700 with a factory wood stock that I'm delaying replacing. It has a typically low comb height. I noticed the last time I was out shooting that I was getting a primarily horizontal pattern, and assumed that it was due to me pushing my cheek sideways against the stock, in an attempt to get some type of weld (since I could not set my cheek "down" on the comb).

I attempted to verify my theory I built my own cheek piece out of dense foam and athletic tape (as a temporary solution for testing purposes). It felt pretty solid so I was hopeful..... Well I was half right. the horizontal is nearly gone, but now my groups are primarily vertical, and I have to believe that it has something to do with 2 things

1 I believe that the athletic tape is a bit "grabby" and is not letting the stock slide in the rear bag as well. As soon as I identified this and took some steps to correct, and it seemed to help.

2 I think it also may have something to do with varying amounts of cheek pressure downward, and maybe inconsistent firmness of the read bag (due to varying amounts of left hand squeeze). This is the first time I've shot a rifle with a proper comb height, so I'm afraid I may just need some practice, but I would also love to hear some pointers from the peanut gallery. It sure seems that most shooters for lack of a better term "lay" or "rest" the full weight of their head on the stock, otherwise I would think that you would get a neck cramp laying prone for long periods. What do you all do? Has anyone received proper training (military or otherwise) that have instructed them a certain way?

Thanks a heap!

BB

 

[Bravo 4]

I have laid behind a rifle for some extended periods of time. It can get taxing if you aren't comfy. If I knew I had to be down for a while I would make sure to build up my upper body position with a jacket, pack or such. Then adjust the bipod higher (or use a taller one) to get me up off the ground a little. This takes a little trial and error for every firing position (point) you're in. The reason I do this is because the lower you are to the ground the more strain it puts on your neck because you are having to keep it raised. I know-I know what some will say: "The lower you are to the ground the more stable you will be." There is some truth to that but not if it is wearing you out! I have to get up a little higher than most due to having a steel plate holding some of my neck vertebrae together. I lost some range of motion. It kinda reminds me of squirrel hunting where you are almost always looking up. Your neck will get wore out in short order, but will get used to it over time. The more you practice the better things get. I used to be able to lay and glass or shoot all day...litterally.
Also, when I put my head down on my stock I don't just lay it on there. I make contact at my jaw line and slide my head down. This will pull the skin taught and help with relaxing muscles.
If the scope has taller rings/mounts then an adjustable (horizontal) butt plate will help to get your head/check rest higher and still keep the stock in the shoulder. Plus help keep you from turkey necking and using muscles to hold everything where it feels right.
A lot of guys I know use a loose rear bag. I keep mine pretty hard, but not so tuff that I can't squeeze it for a little bit of adjustment. That way I can also keep my head and weight down on the stock for an extended period of time and stay focus through the scope on my target/engagement area, and not have to use muscles.

Hope some of this helps, good luck with your shooting.

 

[Jeremyc]

https://www.triadtactical.com/Triad-Comb-Height-Kit.html with https://www.triadtactical.com/All-Triad-Stock-Packs/ may be an economical solution

 

[WildRose]

I have a Remington 700 with a factory wood stock that I'm delaying replacing. It has a typically low comb height. I noticed the last time I was out shooting that I was getting a primarily horizontal pattern, and assumed that it was due to me pushing my cheek sideways against the stock, in an attempt to get some type of weld (since I could not set my cheek "down" on the comb).

I attempted to verify my theory I built my own cheek piece out of dense foam and athletic tape (as a temporary solution for testing purposes). It felt pretty solid so I was hopeful..... Well I was half right. the horizontal is nearly gone, but now my groups are primarily vertical, and I have to believe that it has something to do with 2 things

1 I believe that the athletic tape is a bit "grabby" and is not letting the stock slide in the rear bag as well. As soon as I identified this and took some steps to correct, and it seemed to help.

2 I think it also may have something to do with varying amounts of cheek pressure downward, and maybe inconsistent firmness of the read bag (due to varying amounts of left hand squeeze). This is the first time I've shot a rifle with a proper comb height, so I'm afraid I may just need some practice, but I would also love to hear some pointers from the peanut gallery. It sure seems that most shooters for lack of a better term "lay" or "rest" the full weight of their head on the stock, otherwise I would think that you would get a neck cramp laying prone for long periods. What do you all do? Has anyone received proper training (military or otherwise) that have instructed them a certain way?

Thanks a heap!

BB

Lots of practice mounting the rifle so you know when it feels right without thinking about it.

If your scope sets high you'll need to add some kind of cheek pad. Personally I have found that Trad Tactical stock pack/pad is an excellent and multi purpose accessory that eally does the job well and has the added benefit of offering ammo storage as well.
If you have a really scope, you can always cut some foam inserts to raise the comb even more.

The zipper pouch also doubles for both a box of rifle ammo but also a secure pocket to put maps, drop cards, kestrel, you name it.

 

[barefooter56]

I have a Remington 700 with a factory wood stock that I'm delaying replacing. It has a typically low comb height. I noticed the last time I was out shooting that I was getting a primarily horizontal pattern, and assumed that it was due to me pushing my cheek sideways against the stock, in an attempt to get some type of weld (since I could not set my cheek "down" on the comb).

I attempted to verify my theory I built my own cheek piece out of dense foam and athletic tape (as a temporary solution for testing purposes). It felt pretty solid so I was hopeful..... Well I was half right. the horizontal is nearly gone, but now my groups are primarily vertical, and I have to believe that it has something to do with 2 things

1 I believe that the athletic tape is a bit "grabby" and is not letting the stock slide in the rear bag as well. As soon as I identified this and took some steps to correct, and it seemed to help.

2 I think it also may have something to do with varying amounts of cheek pressure downward, and maybe inconsistent firmness of the read bag (due to varying amounts of left hand squeeze). This is the first time I've shot a rifle with a proper comb height, so I'm afraid I may just need some practice, but I would also love to hear some pointers from the peanut gallery. It sure seems that most shooters for lack of a better term "lay" or "rest" the full weight of their head on the stock, otherwise I would think that you would get a neck cramp laying prone for long periods. What do you all do? Has anyone received proper training (military or otherwise) that have instructed them a certain way?

Thanks a heap!

BB

Boozer,
I would suggest you buy Nancy Tompkins book " Prone and long Range Rifle Shooting" Its all in there from a lady who is a long range champion at Camp Perry and in competitions around the world. SINCLAIR carry's it.

 

[Boozer]

Phil-

Thanks for the recommendation on the book. Sounds like a pretty good read. I've been spending so much of my time fiddling with the rifle and my load development that I have a feeling I am quickly becoming the weak link in the accuracy chain.

Jeremy and Wildrose-

I've attached a picture of the cheek pad that I put together. Again, I have a feeling that the material on the bottom is causing it to grab in the rear bag a bit, giving me varying amounts of muzzle rise. I'll try to cover it with something slick the next time I go out. I'll also pull of the front and rear swivel studs, just in case. it doesn't help that my stock has the heavily sloped bottom. Next stock will be flat bottomed (C'mon magpul, a LA version of the Hunter 700 would be appreciated any day now!!!)

Surely these pre-made cheek pieces like the one you're recommending have material on the bottom, have you all noticed anything?

 

[barefooter56]

Phil-

Thanks for the recommendation on the book. Sounds like a pretty good read. I've been spending so much of my time fiddling with the rifle and my load development that I have a feeling I am quickly becoming the weak link in the accuracy chain.

Jeremy and Wildrose-

I've attached a picture of the cheek pad that I put together. Again, I have a feeling that the material on the bottom is causing it to grab in the rear bag a bit, giving me varying amounts of muzzle rise. I'll try to cover it with something slick the next time I go out. I'll also pull of the front and rear swivel studs, just in case. it doesn't help that my stock has the heavily sloped bottom. Next stock will be flat bottomed (C'mon magpul, a LA version of the Hunter 700 would be appreciated any day now!!!)

Surely these pre-made cheek pieces like the one you're recommending have material on the bottom, have you all noticed anything?

Boozer,
We are the major weak link nearly all the time ! lol ! Take a look at MacMillian stocks, Stockys etc for stocks suitable for hunting with adjustable cheek pieces. They are out there. You just have to look hard. Between the tape and the sling swivel stud left in the stock. I would say that those are the two major problems with the stock riding in the bag. Slope isn't helping either. Have you tried putting a spacer block under the rear bag so you can adjust it and the bipod height to get more comfortable behind the rifle. One other issue with shooting off a bench is to be able to get behind the rifle butt correctly with your shoulder to so the rifle recoils straighter in the bag.

 

[FearNoWind]

Boozer,
Lots of good stuff here. I am especially attached to:

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Boozer,
... Take a look at MacMillian stocks, Stockys etc for stocks suitable for hunting with adjustable cheek pieces. ... Slope isn't helping either. ... get behind the rifle butt correctly with your shoulder to so the rifle recoils straighter in the bag.

... I would make sure to build up my upper body position with a jacket, pack or such. Then adjust the bipod higher (or use a taller one) to get me up off the ground a little. This takes a little trial and error for every firing position (point) you're in. The reason I do this is because the lower you are to the ground the more strain it puts on your neck because you are having to keep it raised. ...

I would only add that I've never been comfortable with the term cheek "weld". That suggests to a lot of shooters that the cheek has to be somewhere between firmly resting on the stock to pressing hard against the stock. IMO, neither is correct.
Cheek "weld" in my experience means the cheek makes contact with the stock and remains there but it does not apply pressure of any kind on the rifle stock.
I use McMillan stocks almost exclusively; with adjustable cheek piece.
I lightly touch the stock with my jaw, slip the cheek down with just enough pressure to force the skin to bunch up until I achieve sight alignment in the scope. Then I back off just a bit to make certain there's no pressure on the stock. It's easy to check if the "touch" is right by pressing on the outside of the stock and moving the butt toward the cheek. The stock should move just a bit without forcing my head to one side. But there's lots more to accuracy than cheek weld.
Example: I've always taught shooters to avoid putting the thumb over the to;of the stock. The thumb should be along side the outer portion of the stock, just above the trigger finger. With that hold the hand pulls the stock straight back into the shoulder. With the thumb over the stock it's easy to start squeezing the stock without realizing it and that puts torque on the stock - baaad stuff.

 

[Boozer]

I have spent a good amount of time looking at stocks lately, but I cannot justify $500+ for an HS precision, Manners, McMillian, etc. maybe someday,alas but not now. That is why I'm currently trying to make-do until the new Magpul hunter 700 comes out for long action (im shooting 30-06) adjustable LOP, and check piece for around $250. might not be the best stock ever, but I think it will represent an awesome bang for the buck.

Fear no wind -

I will try using lighter downward head pressure, and will try more POI drills as I'm doing my next load work-up this weekend. hopefully should let me know if I'm exerting any undue force into the system. I never wrap the thumb BTW, big no-no.

I'm shooting from a stable bench with a Caldwell tackdriver bag in front and a small rear bag with wings. rear bag is not very firm.

it is interesting, while doing the load work-up that was consistently giving me the horizontal, as I did my dry-fire drills, the trigger snap pulled primarily horizontal (which made sense) but even this past time when I was getting primarily vertical, the trigger snap was still pulling horizontal, so that would lead me to believe I'm not necessarily putting force into the rifle, it would be upon major recoil (hence maybe more of the stock getting hung up in the bags theory).

thanks for all the pointers guys, I should mention that I'll check action screws etc., but any more suggestions for positioning and holding no-no's that would lead to a vertical dispersion would be much appreciated.

 

[FearNoWind]

... I'm shooting from a stable bench with a Caldwell tackdriver bag in front and a small rear bag with wings. rear bag is not very firm.....

That slope at the rear of the stock bothers me a little. I'm not sure butt bags lke that interface with the stock. Next time you go out, try setting up with that Caldwell bag at the bench as carefully as you can and leave the rear bag out. Pull lightly to the rear with the three fingers on the trigger hand in as straight line as you can. Put your gloved hand (fist sometimes works well) under the stock to support it for a string of shots and compare the results to those you printed with the rear bag.
I'd be interested in knowing how that works out.
Oh ... and watch where that front swivel piece sits. If i's inside the Caldwall slot it can cause you headaches.

 

[FearNoWind]

Must be a wall hanger. Don't see no dirt - that too purdy.

 

[WildRose]

Boozer, I don't see anything necessarily wrong with what you're doing there and I really doubt you're getting any muzzle flip due to binding on your rear bag. Many people really prefer the "hook style" stocks for prone and bench shooting which are designed in such a way as to really lock the butt of the stock into the bag.

I'm with FNO as far as not digging your cheek into the stock and basically I just lay into it where I'm comfortable. I have tried quite a few different styles of cheek pads over the years, everything from the old Uncle Mike's that was a spandex/nylon sleeve with a neoprene pad to the accuriser permanent mounted pads and their strap on pad. Years ago I even tried surgical socks (the stretchy nylon sleeves that went under plaster cast and slices of neoprene padding.

Of those I've tried in recent years the Triad Tactical Stock Pack and Tactical Sharpshooter Stock Packs seem to work best on the ADL/BDL Monte Carlo stocks. Like the others you can always slice and dice some neoprene to slide under it if you need additional height.

Unfortunately individual fit is a very individual thing so you'll just have to play with some of them to see what works best for you.

On your torquing/horizonal problem make sure you're only using the tip of your finger on the trigger. I've seen a lot of guys who for whatever reason were taught to actually hook their finger over the trigger which makes it next to impossible to get a good pull straight back on the trigger causing torque.

Press the last joint of your trigger finger against the last joint of your thumb, that press is what you want on your trigger as well.

Hopefully some of this will make sense and help. WR

 

[Boozer]

Well, sorry I didn't get back to everyone sooner. I went out last weekend and shot a seating depth test prone out of the truck bed. Caldwell tackdriver front rest, my rear bag. this time both swivel studs removed, and I also used a slick adhesive target backer between my rear bag and my stock, just to make sure the adhesive wrap wasn't sticking. I tried to use just light cheek pressure.

You can see the results, the upper left is .005 off the lands, and turned a .44" group. best group I've ever shot.....ever, and the vertical issue seems to have disappeared. If anything they were a little horizontal, but that may have been partially due to a 5-6 mph crosswind. I did recheck action screws, scope rings etc. but when I re-torqued I didn't get more than 1/8 turn out of any of them so I think it was all positional, or could have been the swivel studs.

thanks for the help, you guys are awesome as always.

 

[Jeremyc]

It seems to me that shooting out of a truck bed is a less than ideal scenario. Any movement that you may have will be transferred to the barrel moving because the truck may move. Impressive groups nonetheless