Bullet Construction vs Lethality

[2 the Plug]

I shoot tungsten shot. Good stuff.

We could try to remove cost from the equation.

But on planet earth, about the only places cost doesn't affect the design and manufacture of products produced for commercial sale is NASA, and the Department of Defense.

If cost is beyond reach of the majority of the targeted customers, it doesn't get manufactured.

But has anybody tried it??? A little pill to keep your big pills moving on impact, ya know get it in deep??? .257 wby, copper jacket, lead/tungsten core? Sorry, seriously interested in quarter bores at 4500+fps, just the math astounds me.

 

[Petey308]

I don't disagree but I don't recall cost being in the OP's question. Tungsten tip shouldn't touch the barrel, same with core. Deployable fins could stabilize a tungsten sabot thru a smooth bore.

"Factors to consider are BC, ductility of bullet material, caliber, muzzle velocity, accuracy (<1MOA), weight retention, type of expansion ( petal vs mushrooming vs explosive vs petal shedding)."
I'd love any of the bullet makers to comment on if they are trying new alloys or tungsten cause you know Roy W would have tried to sling it at 6000fps if he had todays tech…
Thank you for indulging my friend.

Tungsten cores have been done and already abandoned by some.

Dynamic Research Technologies' Terminal Shock bullets feature a compressed metal powder core. Tungsten is one of those metals. Here's what it looks like cut apart:

 

[Pdvdh]

So if vitals were fine, did it drop and bleed out from just the shoulder wound?

No. The itty bitty doe was still alive after he collected his gear and drove the 800+ yards over to it on his Polaris Ranger with his grandson.

Ray expected it to be dead, since it dropped at the shot. But then the doe raised its head. So when Ray approached it to finish it off, the poor critter bolted up with an adrenalin rush, and almost ended up in his Ranger. It wasn't gonna get away... the onside shoulder was a bloody mess. But it wasn't dying from organ failure either. Ray said the bullet never entered the ribcage. Not that he could see.

I didn't ask him how he finished it off. But with his grandson there watching the spectacle, I presume he shot the poor thing to put it out of its misery as quickly as possible. And spare the grandson's memory being scarred for the rest of his life.

 

[Petey308]

No. The itty bitty doe was still alive after he collected his gear and drove the 800+ yards over to it on his Polaris Ranger with his grandson.

Ray expected it to be dead, since it dropped at the shot. But then the doe raised its head. So when Ray approached it to finish it off, the poor critter bolted up with an adrenalin rush, and almost ended up in his Ranger. It wasn't gonna get away... the onside shoulder was a bloody mess. But it wasn't dying from organ failure either. Ray said the bullet never entered the ribcage. Not that he could see.

I didn't ask him how he finished it off. But with his grandson there watching the spectacle, I presume he shot the poor thing to put it out of its misery as quickly as possible. And spare the grandson's memory being scarred for the rest of his life.

Yeah I read the rest of his post. He didn't mention if he ever put another shot in her, but it didn't seem like it.

He found several bullets with clogged openings. I'll bet it penciled through and he didn't notice the minimal wounding to vitals and the likely small exit.

Impact velocity at 800+ yards for that bullet and cartridge would have been in the 1800-1900fps range, and not a lot of resistance from antelope.

That's what makes the most sense to me anyway.

 

[Pdvdh]

So if vitals were fine, did it drop and bleed out from just the shoulder wound?

Somehow or another you've misinterpreted Ray's Post.

Ray's interpretation of the bullet wound was it was a surficial bullet splash. No part or piece from the 300gr OTM ever entered the ribcage.

He was dumbfounded. Stupefied. Couldn't believe it.

 

[Mcranch]

So you're saying a bullet that struck an animal at 200yds just "splattered" and didn't penetrate the animal at all? What was the impact velocity?

I would absolutely love to see actual documentation of this.

I took a shot at a large whitetail you could see that it was a shoulder hit the leg kicked out evident that it broke the shoulder. It went down and came back up I placed another shot this one took out both lungs. On examination the first bullet just went in enough to break the front shoulder but never entered the cavity. Closer examination it appeared the the bullet slapped the shoulder, something like a keyhole. Went back to where the buck had been standing we located a 1/2 inch limb had deflected the bullet enough to cause it to tip up. A possibility on the splattering conclusion of the target animal? My two scents. Getting back to bullets, a Berger 205 at less than 300 yards but farther than 180 yards what impact can one expect from a mv of 3082. Would a mono be a better choice at this range? My main targets are pigs but if a good whitetail happens by I would take the shot. I have seen what the 215 Berger can do on Elk by pics on this site. Wouldn't a Nosler 210 ab or a mono like a Barnes be the better choice? I'm using the Berger 205 because I have 4 boxes to use and 12 pounds of H1000. Whenever Nosler decides to send my GS some components I will stock up. Nosler has been my choice since the ballistics came out.

 

[Petey308]

Somehow or another you've misinterpreted Ray's Post.

Ray's interpretation of the bullet wound was it was a surficial bullet splash. No part or piece from the 300gr OTM ever entered the ribcage.

He was dumbfounded. Stupefied. Couldn't believe it.

Perhaps I have misinterpreted it, but I did read the whole thing twice.

Sometimes anomalies happen and we can't explain them. This may be one of those. He did offer a possible explanation though with the clogged tips he found. Seems he found it reasonable that in hindsight maybe it played a factor. I feel it's reasonable too.

Who knows, maybe the tip necked over and the bullet veered dramatically and exited out of the top or side of the shoulder. We may never know.

It's still an interesting story and one to think about and try to learn from. I for one have had similar issues from open tip bullets like that and prefer a tipped bullet, but Berger has gotten way better at ensuring tips are clear from the factory.

So while we're talking bullet construction and lethality, things like tip design should be considered as well, and how it can affect outcomes.

 

[nralifer]

So you're saying a bullet that struck an animal at 200yds just "splattered" and didn't penetrate the animal at all? What was the impact velocity?

I would absolutely love to see actual documentation of this.

That's what he said. We discussed this at he 2018 SCI show at the Proof Research booth. He did not have a picture of the wound. His friend, who was the land owner, killed the Elk about 2 weeks later. I was incredulous as well but he insisted it happened.

 

[nralifer]

I don't recall all the specifics but wasn't there an ELD that came apart mid-flight some years back?

I don't know about that, but I saw a guy shooting A-tips from a 7.5 Twist 300 Norma barrel that did come apart mid flight.

 

[nralifer]

I agree bullet construction is also a consideration for high velocity impacts.

Just that the member I was responding to only posted a concern with accuracy. So I carefully worded my response to address only accuracy.

"Pretty safe to presume any bullet enjoying popular use for Long Range Hunting (mountainside to mountainside) would shoot accurately enough for your Close Range Hunting."

1000 yard shots at animals in the field are difficult. Rarely are sll the conditions achieved to have a reasonable chance at success on the first shot. Both wind down range and the Coriolis effect or both will cause a mis or poor shot placement.

 

[nralifer]

So in essence there is no real standard. Everyone does their own thing??

20% gel is definitely denser than 10% so it is easier to get bullets to expand in 20%. We use 10% because it is a more stringent test.

 

[FEENIX]

Dumb guy here and after pages 1-14 (with mild derailments) I appreciate the education. Stupid question but here goes. How is it that we are still mainly using lead and copper for projectiles? Where is the research on other alloys? If a titanium receiver is stronger then wouldn't it stand to reason there are stronger alloys than lead and copper? I know someone mentioned depleted uranium from a tank or anti aircraft gun, but seriously, 300 plus years of shoulder fired projectiles and we are still at lead, copper or lead and copper?

If tungsten bullets can penetrate armor, what about a water Buffalo? Or elk shoulder?

I am not saying you are, but let us set aside the political agenda because my response to you might set some triggers to go KABOOM. The simple answer is co$t. People are complaining about the current prices of bullets regardless of the material, and offering other alternatives you noted will drive the prices even higher, at least the initial cost, due to manufacturing set-up, tooling, research and development, etc. Copper is more costly than lead, especially on the premium ones, because of how it is processed.

Innovation costs time and money. For a manufacturer to use material that is more costly than copper and lead, there must be a driver for them to innovate and pay dividends on their return on investment. I posted this last year.



(https://www.longrangehunting.com/threads/interesting-lead-free-bullet-design-concept.309057/)

Yes, most would know the resemblance of an old design concept (Nosler Partition, an excellent and effective design, by the way); just like most bullet designs today, they are improvements from an existing design regardless of whether they have ornamental patents. During the Gulf War, we used depleted uranium on our F4s and A-10s (I do not have personal experience with other airframes) but with limited instances because our pilots were reporting they did not need it for their intended mission targets, so they reverted to the standard ammunition configuration, especially with the A-10s (BRRRRRT!).

Continuous process improvement is one of my work competencies, and one of the issues always comes up is value-added products and services. What is the customer willing and able to pay for the increased cost of the products and services? As end-users, we ask ourselves the same question. Uncle Sam has deep pockets, yet they realize (yes, one of those rare occasions) that the standard ammunition is sufficient for their mission. I have a pretty good inventory of both lead and lead-free bullets, but I am not opposed to trying new material on bullets; I am a sucker for innovation. Just my 2-pence to ponder, Cheers!

 

[xsn10s]

Like I said before pricing people out of a behavior or activity is one way of banning without legislating a ban. The left has been studying and planning how to do this with cigarettes, sugary drinks, and now with 2A.

 

[Noobie]

I'm starting this thread to discuss issues regarding the materials, design and construction of rifle hunting bullets in so far as it relates to lethality, which, for the purposes of the thread, will be defined as the ability of the bullet to penetrate deeply at any impact angle or distance up to 1000 yds to reach vital organs and effect a one shot kill rapidly. Factors to consider are BC, ductility of bullet material, caliber, muzzle velocity, accuracy (<1MOA), weight retention, type of expansion ( petal vs mushrooming vs explosive vs petal shedding).

It would be nice to see how some of your bullets expand in big game animals, particularly elk. Didn't see any pics on your website. I would also appreciate any advice you could give on hunting elk in the southern black hills, seeing that you are just south of me in SD.

Black HIlls Elk Hunt Advice Needed