A2 sights on a muzzleloader?

[redneckclimbing]

I live in CO, so we can't use scopes on our muzzle loaders. I am considering mounting an A2 carrying handle on my muzzle loader with a folding front sight base.

This would allow me to zero at 150yds with the .50 338 Powerbelts and have plenty of elevation adjustment to get out to 300 yds.

Any thoughts, anyone tried this before?

 

[ohiohunter]

I live in CO, so we can't use scopes on our muzzle loaders. I am considering mounting an A2 carrying handle on my muzzle loader with a folding front sight base.

This would allow me to zero at 150yds with the .50 338 Powerbelts and have plenty of elevation adjustment to get out to 300 yds.

Any thoughts, anyone tried this before?

I didn't crunch any numbers, but do you have enough energy at 300yds for elk? and if you do have the energy do you have the velocity?

If you do, more power to you taking that long of a shot on a tough animal w/ open sights and some of the softest bullets I've ever seen. Personally I'd stick to hunting elk w/ a smokepole, not long ranging poking at'm.

 

[ENCORE]

I don't believe I'd lob that bullet at 300yds even with a scope, let alone open sights. Actually I wouldn't shoot that bullet at all.

With today's modern in-lines, most consider "long range" with a muzzleloader, as anything beyond 200yds. Most, not all, new modern in-line rifles are capable of acceptable 200yd accuracy and retain sufficient bullet energy that far for whitetail and depending on the load, even elk.
As a long range muzzleloader shooter, I can assure you that shooting 300yds or beyond, isn't as easy as just pulling the trigger, even with a scope. Velocity and bullet energy drop extremely fast (along with the bullet) beyond 200yds. That bullet even with a magnum charge is probably going to drop over 3' at 300, even with a 150yd zero. Then the hunting conditions come into play, you're no longer using a bench and the wind becomes a MAJOR factor.

I know people that are GOOD shots at ranges beyond 200yds. It takes 100's of rounds practicing beyond 200yds to get that way, with a scope. I don't believe a single one of them would attempt a 300yd shot at game with open sights.

Not trying to bash you or your abilities but, 300yds is exceptional range for even an exceptional shooter to shoot at game with open sights.

 

[redneckclimbing]

According to JBM ballistics at 7000' elev where I hunt.

We are looking at 21.3" of drop which will be able to be dialed out exactly with the elevation adjustment on the sight.

1820 ft/ lbs. of energy, more than enough by anyone's standards I believe.

13.8" of wind drift with a 10mph full value, also can be accounted for with exactly dialed adjustment.

Even with 100 fps in ES it only makes about 3" difference in elevation.

My concerns are how will this and other bullets act at 1550 fps Impact velocity? If it is a soft bullet, great, should work well at lower velocities then?

Also is Mach 1.4 to close to the transonic zone to de-stabilize the bullet with a 1:28 twist?

As far as shooting that far with open sights goes. How many people that have never fired a weapon has the Marine Corps qualified at 500m with open sights?

I'll be shooting a loop sling and definitely be putting in my time at the range from field positions.

My other question is 2 MOA or less, realistic with a muzzle loader? I realize most people think this is crazy but has anyone out there actually shot these distances, that may have some legitimate input?

 

[ENCORE]

According to JBM ballistics at 7000' elev where I hunt.

We are looking at 21.3" of drop which will be able to be dialed out exactly with the elevation adjustment on the sight.

1820 ft/ lbs. of energy, more than enough by anyone's standards I believe.

13.8" of wind drift with a 10mph full value, also can be accounted for with exactly dialed adjustment.

Even with 100 fps in ES it only makes about 3" difference in elevation.

My concerns are how will this and other bullets act at 1550 fps Impact velocity? If it is a soft bullet, great, should work well at lower velocities then?

Also is Mach 1.4 to close to the transonic zone to de-stabilize the bullet with a 1:28 twist?

As far as shooting that far with open sights goes. How many people that have never fired a weapon has the Marine Corps qualified at 500m with open sights?

I'll be shooting a loop sling and definitely be putting in my time at the range from field positions.

My other question is 2 MOA or less, realistic with a muzzle loader? I realize most people think this is crazy but has anyone out there actually shot these distances, that may have some legitimate input?

How about more information on your rifle, load and the velocity? I'd really like to know what charge and rifle you're using to compute the data. Two of my programs indicate that you'll need approximately 2,200fps with a 338gr bullet to achieve the energy you're indicating. That's a lot of propellant pushing a bullet that heavy and fast from a production muzzleloader.

Legitimate input?



My first 500yd target...

 

[redneckclimbing]

I don't have any kind of a load yet. I'm looking at a CVA Accura V2 with a 27" barrel.
I really like the nitride treatment.

The velocities are straight off of Powerbelt's web site and the ballistics were ran through JBM. I am also considering the Thor bullets. I would just really like to know how they mushroom at these lower velocities?

Do you weigh your charges to get those groups? How often do you have to clean your barrel? Do you have any other secrets?

Thanks!

 

[ENCORE]

I don't have any kind of a load yet. I'm looking at a CVA Accura V2 with a 27" barrel.
I really like the nitride treatment.
The velocities are straight off of Powerbelt's web site and the ballistics were ran through JBM. I am also considering the Thor bullets. I would just really like to know how they mushroom at these lower velocities?
Do you weigh your charges to get those groups? How often do you have to clean your barrel? Do you have any other secrets?
Thanks!

I'm shooting a semi-custom rifle. An Ultimate Firearms Inc. BP Xpress. I'm shooting charges that you, nor anyone with a production muzzleloader can SAFELY use. It shoots 3 - T7M pellets and the 300gr bullet very well. Therefore I do not weigh my charges. Note: Those targets are my best at those ranges. I do not expect to shoot that well on any given day. Sometimes everything in the Universe aligns..........
Using T7, I have to swab between each shot with a single patch. If I required a fast second shot, I can load it. Because of the ignition system in this rifle, its pretty easy to clean. From start to finish the inside of the barrel can be done with, to my expectations, 5 patches.

Although their web page may indicate certain velocities, it doesn't mean that all rifles achieve those inflated published numbers. Pretty much each different production barrel is going to determine what charge with bullet "X" likes. Rarely (I didn't say always), do the majority of muzzleloaders achieve its best accuracy with maximum charges. Although there are some rifles that will shoot to the same accuracy with maximum charges as with charges reduced by say 20%. It all depends on the barrel.
I'd certainly re-run that data again. Getting 2,200+fps using a 338gr bullet is very questionable concerning safety IMO. Especially with a rifle with a maximum 150gr charge. 120grs if using BH209. Even with a max charge of BH209 (120grs V) a 250gr bullet is only going to get around 2,100fps.

Thor are very good bullets and a much better bullet than a PB. Some shoot them with felt/wool wads.

 

[redneckclimbing]

Will a chronograph pick up the bullet out of a muzzleloader, or do you need a screen as when you are checking velocities with a shotgun?

I have a friend that shoots the 338 PB's with 120gr V of Blackhorn, it's a 27" barrel and we could figure out if those numbers are inflated pretty easily. I was actually wondering the same thing. Kind of like B.C.'s with bullet makers.

Anyone ever tried it?

 

[ENCORE]

Will a chronograph pick up the bullet out of a muzzleloader, or do you need a screen as when you are checking velocities with a shotgun?

I have a friend that shoots the 338 PB's with 120gr V of Blackhorn, it's a 27" barrel and we could figure out if those numbers are inflated pretty easily. I was actually wondering the same thing. Kind of like B.C.'s with bullet makers.

Anyone ever tried it?

One piece of advice....... cover the screen on the chronograph when shooting with a muzzleloader. Even with PB bullets and ESPECIALLY with saboted bullets.
More than one has been destroyed.

 

[redneckclimbing]

Chatted with a gentleman from a web-site that sells muzzle loaders about the CVA Accura V2, they have a 27" and a 30" version. He said you gain on average 50 fps with the 30" version. Seems like it would be more than that to me, how does that sound to any one else?

He also said that many of their customers take deer at 300+ yds. And that I could reasonably expect to hold a 4" group at 300 yds. with some load development.

Just FYI, not saying that anyone can do it, in the field, when it matters, but my group can be quite a bit bigger than that and still kill an elk, and I have quite a bit of time until September! I guess I'm just going to have to get one and see what I can do with it!

Thanks for your input!

 

[ENCORE]

Chatted with a gentleman from a web-site that sells muzzle loaders about the CVA Accura V2, they have a 27" and a 30" version. He said you gain on average 50 fps with the 30" version. Seems like it would be more than that to me, how does that sound to any one else?

He also said that many of their customers take deer at 300+ yds. And that I could reasonably expect to hold a 4" group at 300 yds. with some load development.

Just FYI, not saying that anyone can do it, in the field, when it matters, but my group can be quite a bit bigger than that and still kill an elk, and I have quite a bit of time until September! I guess I'm just going to have to get one and see what I can do with it!

Thanks for your input!

I would suggest that he's pretty close, yet it may be slightly less. There isn't a significant advantage to the shooter gaining velocity with a 30" barrel. Its marketing by CVA.

As far as "many" of his customers taking deer at 300+yds...... I question the word "many". I frequent many different muzzleloader sites and with that said, I can't recall shooters showing 4" 300yd targets with CVA rifles or 300+yd harvests. CVA in-line rifles are just not known to be a long range accurate muzzleloaders. Now someone that promotes CVA may try and tell you different, but the evidence just isn't there. There "may" be one trying to compete in matches like held at the NMLRA Friendship shoots, but its extremely rare to see an in-line CVA rifle shooter trying to compete. CVA holds no in-line shooting records to my knowledge.
I would suggest, if you intend to attempt 300yd shots with a CVA brand rifle, I'd at least consider the Apex, its top of the CVA line and certainly their best.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[redneckclimbing]

Encore-

Any suggestions on a muzzleloader that won't cost $1000 but will shoot adequately? I appreciate the feed back.

 

[ENCORE]

Encore-

Any suggestions on a muzzleloader that won't cost $1000 but will shoot adequately? I appreciate the feed back.

This is just my opinion and many may disagree.

I'd consider .50 Knight Mountaineer Muzzleloader

Or the Remington Ultimate Muzzle Loading | Remington
The Remington Ultimate has been found for less than $800. However its a very different muzzleloader than most are used to. It may take some work to develop a load/bullet that will shoot to your expectations. There are a few guys who own them that are getting accuracy that will match the Ultimate Firearms Inc. BP Xpress rifle. Although this rifle is capable of 200gr charges, I would suggest dropping back to no more than 180grs. The Hornady 300gr SST with a H50445LB sabot is what I'd try through the rifle. I'm not partial to light bullets and long range. It would be wise to know that this rifle would be legal where and when you hunt. It uses a LRMP in a case and not 209 or #11 ignition.

I would suggest....... "If you don't have the money or time to do it right the first time, where will you get the money or time to do it over?" To get a rifle that's very capable of 300yd harvests, I would suggest you spend a little more for higher quality.

 

[redneckclimbing]

For what it's worth, I ended up going with the CVA Optima with the Blackhorn breech plug. My thoughts were that if it didn't shoot well enough to get out to 300 then I would just get closer, but I just couldn't justify $800+ for a muzzle loader. I just don't hunt that season enough.

Anyways, ordered a sizing pack of Thor bullets and am still waiting on them. I will try them as well just to see how they shoot.

Picked up some .50 cal 338gr Powerbelt Platinums just to see what they would do. with 120gr (95gr. by weight) of Blackhorn 209 powder I got a 1.3 " group at 100 yds. Plenty good for deer, elk, and antelope out to 300 in my opinion.

Shot groups at 90 gr (weight), about 3 inches. And another at 85 gr (weight), that was right at 2 inches. I was cleaning the barrel between each shot and weighing my charges.

I mounted the A2 sight on the "detachable scope rail" they sell. It seems to work really well so far, it is a lot farther forward than it normally would be so I am using the CQB ring. It is actually really nice as it does not obscure as much of the sight picture.

I just need to get over to the gunsmith's now and have him attach a rail section to mount the front sight to and we'll be in business.

My plan is next to actually shoot out to 300 and confirm that the bullets are still flying true and get some muzzle velocities. I will post later if anyone is interested?

I know that this is nowhere near complete yet but so far so good! Thanks for all the input.​