Sig BDX and kilo-abs

[cohunt]

Guys,

Just a quick update on the Colorado situation. I just go off the phone with a friend at Sig. Interestingly, they just finished a writers deal to demo and use the BDX system...hunting pronghorn near Craig, CO.

The legality of their system was something they were concerned about for all 50 states, but especially Colorado, so before moving forward, they went through the process with a legal team to make sure it would be Colorado compliant. Obviously, you don't want to cut out one of the biggest hunting states in the US!

Long story short, from a legal perspective, they are 50 state legal for centerfire rifle hunting, including Colorado. This is due to the way the system distributes the tasks...ie...among other things, there is no LRF in the scope itself etc. There are other things that would cause a system to be banned (think Tracking Point, Burris Eliminator is out too), but at this time with current regs, Sig tells me their lawyers went through the rules and definitions to ensure they are 50 state legal.

Just thought I'd pass on what they passed to me, hope that helps!

I wouldn't trust sigs lawyers though...I'd still email colorado CPW to get a confirmation in writing-- way I see it from the regs is that it's not legal...I'm the one in the field that can loose my hunting license (possibly for life) I'm not going to trust the company selling it unless they have it in writing from CPW that it's legal.

 

[cohunt]

so I saw on a different forums that CPW has said that the BDX system is NOT considered a "smart rifle" in colorado due to the ballistic computer processor being in the separate handheld rangefinder (and no attached to the rifle)

I have tried to contact Sig to see if they can provide me with any sort of legal documentation that this is correct as when I contacted them back last year about it, they told me it was a "no go"

does anyone have any written correspondence from CPW that states it is legal to use for big game hunting in CO?

does anyone know if Sig is going to offer the BDX system in a higher level scope in the future?

anyone know if Sig is going to incorporate the "full" AB calculator into the BDX system in the future? or if they just still intend to utilize the "lite" version in the BDX line?

this system still interests me, but I am still wary of it all

 

[EricRF]

Sig states on their website that it is legal in Colorado with the caveat that it is up to the user to figure out definitively. The specific rule on smart guns say that it is only smart if there is an onboard ballistic calculator in the scope. There is definitively no ballistic calculator in the scope so I would not be worried about it at all. In addition, I have never heard of anybody even having problems using the Burris Eliminator in Colorado which does have the onboard ballistic calculator. I think there are so many people who have never even heard of the restriction and I was one of them up until a year ago.

https://www.sigsauer.com/bdx-support/

 

[cohunt]

Sig states on their website that it is legal in Colorado with the caveat that it is up to the user to figure out definitively. The specific rule on smart guns say that it is only smart if there is an onboard ballistic calculator in the scope. There is definitively no ballistic calculator in the scope so I would not be worried about it at all. In addition, I have never heard of anybody even having problems using the Burris Eliminator in Colorado which does have the onboard ballistic calculator. I think there are so many people who have never even heard of the restriction and I was one of them up until a year ago.

https://www.sigsauer.com/bdx-support/

Reason I ask was I got a direct reply to my email through the cpw that any scopes with electronic capabilities (any optics containing any sort of computer chip) are considered "smart guns"

They specifically noted that "Burris eliminator, bushnell yardage pro, atn x-sight or any other scope with rangefindibg or ballistic caluculating capabilities" are considered "smart guns" -- they also specifically stated that " fiber optic or battery operated lighted reticles" are not "smart guns unless they contain a ballistic computer"

I'm sure the sig scopes have a "computer" in them as they communicate via bluetooth and they have a lighted reticle dot that changes due to remote ballistic computer communication

I was hoping someone would have some sort of printed documentation from colorado that these scopes are legal for big game hunting. I would never leave it up to "no one has ever been prosecuted over one" nor would I leave it to the "knowledge" of a field officer .

 

[EricRF]

Here is the legal definition of a smart rifle from the Colorado Revised Statues. The definition of a smart gun for this scenario is if the gun has a ballistics computer. The Sig BDX riflescope does not have a ballistics computer. The ballistic computer is contained within the rangefinder itself. So from a pure letter of the law perspective, this is perfectly legal. From a real world perspectivec officers can cite you for whatever they want and it is your job to defend yourself.

https://www.sos.state.co.us/CCR/GenerateRulePdf.do?ruleVersionId=7485&fileName=2 CCR 406-0

D. Smart Rifles 1. All firearms used to take or attempt to take wildlife shall be fired only by humanly controlled, manually-operated mechanical triggers. No person shall use a smart rifle to take or attempt to take wildlife. 2. "Smart Rifle" means any firearm that is equipped with one or more of the following: a. A target tracking system; b. An electronically-controlled, electronically-assisted, or computer-linked trigger; c. A ballistics computer.

 

[cohunt]

Here is the legal definition of a smart rifle from the Colorado Revised Statues. The definition of a smart gun for this scenario is if the gun has a ballistics computer. The Sig BDX riflescope does not have a ballistics computer. The ballistic computer is contained within the rangefinder itself. So from a pure letter of the law perspective, this is perfectly legal. From a real world perspectivec officers can cite you for whatever they want and it is your job to defend yourself.

https://www.sos.state.co.us/CCR/GenerateRulePdf.do?ruleVersionId=7485&fileName=2 CCR 406-0

D. Smart Rifles 1. All firearms used to take or attempt to take wildlife shall be fired only by humanly controlled, manually-operated mechanical triggers. No person shall use a smart rifle to take or attempt to take wildlife. 2. "Smart Rifle" means any firearm that is equipped with one or more of the following: a. A target tracking system; b. An electronically-controlled, electronically-assisted, or computer-linked trigger; c. A ballistics computer.

thanks, seen that before but my last email from cpw a year or so ago asking about the atn x-sight stated "optics containing computer chips" so I'm trying to see how they are interpreting the "ballistics computer" part of it--as we all know its the "interpretation" of the law that is challenged in court and not the actual wording of a law-- I don't want to even think of the sig bdx technology until I see it in writing from the CPW law enforcement office that is it not considered a "smart rifle"

 

[EricRF]

Decided I might as well ask CPW earlier today and I already got a response. Everything shown below is what I submitted to CPW and the response directly from them. If you are worried about it, I would do the same thing and get a written response from CPW for yourself, but it looks like the BDX is perfectly legal.


Eric,
Thank you for contacting Colorado Parks and Wildlife.
The Sig BDX is legal under current Colorado law.
Best,
Scott

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 1:52 PM
Subject: CPW FAQ Question Submitted from Website
To: <[email protected]>


The following question has been submitted through the CPW FAQ Ask A Question page.



Hello, I wanted to check on the legality of hunting with the Sig BDX Riflescope as it relates to the smart gun rules. Sig specifically states that the BDX riflescope is legal in Colorado, but to always verify with the state. From the Colorado CRS statues, a smart gun is any rifle that has a ballistics computer on it as shown below. The BDX riflescope does not have a ballistics computer which means that it should be perfectly legal to use. It can interface through bluetooth with a rangefinder that does the ballistics calculation itself and then provides an MOA value back to the riflescope which looks to meet the law. Is this also the interpretation of Colorado Parks and Wildlife? No person shall use a smart rifle to take or attempt to take wildlife. 2. "Smart Rifle" means any firearm that is equipped with one or more of the following: ... c. A ballistics computer.


Subject Sig BDX Riflescope legality
Topic Big Game Hunting
Subtopic Other
From Eric ******

 

[cohunt]

Decided I might as well ask CPW earlier today and I already got a response. Everything shown below is what I submitted to CPW and the response directly from them. If you are worried about it, I would do the same thing and get a written response from CPW for yourself, but it looks like the BDX is perfectly legal.


Eric,
Thank you for contacting Colorado Parks and Wildlife.
The Sig BDX is legal under current Colorado law.
Best,
Scott

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <[email protected]>
Date: Mon, Jun 17, 2019 at 1:52 PM
Subject: CPW FAQ Question Submitted from Website
To: <[email protected]>


The following question has been submitted through the CPW FAQ Ask A Question page.



Hello, I wanted to check on the legality of hunting with the Sig BDX Riflescope as it relates to the smart gun rules. Sig specifically states that the BDX riflescope is legal in Colorado, but to always verify with the state. From the Colorado CRS statues, a smart gun is any rifle that has a ballistics computer on it as shown below. The BDX riflescope does not have a ballistics computer which means that it should be perfectly legal to use. It can interface through bluetooth with a rangefinder that does the ballistics calculation itself and then provides an MOA value back to the riflescope which looks to meet the law. Is this also the interpretation of Colorado Parks and Wildlife? No person shall use a smart rifle to take or attempt to take wildlife. 2. "Smart Rifle" means any firearm that is equipped with one or more of the following: ... c. A ballistics computer.


Subject Sig BDX Riflescope legality
Topic Big Game Hunting
Subtopic Other
From Eric ******

Glad to see they responded so quickly to your email, I submitted a question as well earlier today and no response yet-- but who is "Scott"? Every time I have gotten a legal question answered In writing from them it not only includes their full name but also their title/position.

 

[OhYtD]

I am liking these new BDX Rangefinders but having trouble finding comparison details between a few. So between the Kilo 2200mr and the 2400abx is the ballistics software. But since these BDX rangefinders all do the same thing (from what I understand), what's the difference between the 2200BDX and the 2400BDX, other than $300? They both advertise the same range, and the same software, any insight or clarification?

 

[EricRF]

The 2400bdx is stated as 100 extra yards of range on deer sized targets and 200 extra yards on tree sized targets if you use their compare. The biggest advantage of the 2400bdx though is the ability to interface with a kestrel and get an applied ballistics solution to any yardage. The 2200 cannot interface with the kestrel and you are limited to the onboard appllied ballistics lite solution which only goes to 800 yards I believe and it won't have all the environmentals that the kestrel can supply.

 

[cohunt]

BEWARE!! If you intend to hunt with the sig bdx system in colorado next year.

I finally got a response from cpw--- in a nut shell they said "at the current time, the sig bdx IS legal in colorado, BUT make sure you check every year for changes"
The email went on further to basicly say they are currently reviewing the "smart rifle" regulation and MAY change it as they feel that these computer aided ballistic drop programs are an unfair hunting advantage and they MAY change the regulations in the future.
So it looks like they feel that sig "cheated" the rules and therefore may change the rules next year

This info came from Bob Thompson- Lead Investigator for the CO cpw

 

[30378wbymag]

thanks, seen that before but my last email from cpw a year or so ago asking about the atn x-sight stated "optics containing computer chips" so I'm trying to see how they are interpreting the "ballistics computer" part of it--as we all know its the "interpretation" of the law that is challenged in court and not the actual wording of a law-- I don't want to even think of the sig bdx technology until I see it in writing from the CPW law enforcement office that is it not considered a "smart rifle"

As an Information Technology Engineer, please define "Computer Chip"? As written, the Sig BDX is legal, no range finding capabilities in their rifle scopes... All ballistic calculations are in the range finder... Was lucky enough to find a new 2400BDX in the stocking this year... Mama sure can take a hint!! LOL

 

[mauibuilt1]

What's up everyone, so I have the Sierra 6.5-20x52 paired with the KILO1800BDX rangefinder and this set up is as nasty as it gets. Glass is ultra clear, great FOW, the batteries last a while but I always have spares during the cold months. Longest confirmed kill was 742yrds, one shot! I live here in Colorado and have used it last year and going to use it again this year. There is a pamphlet out from CPW that says the Sig BDX system is legal for use in Colorado! Happy hunting everyone

 

[cohunt]

What's up everyone, so I have the Sierra 6.5-20x52 paired with the KILO1800BDX rangefinder and this set up is as nasty as it gets. Glass is ultra clear, great FOW, the batteries last a while but I always have spares during the cold months. Longest confirmed kill was 742yrds, one shot! I live here in Colorado and have used it last year and going to use it again this year. There is a pamphlet out from CPW that says the Sig BDX system is legal for use in Colorado! Happy hunting everyone

Do you have a link to that pamphlet?