working load, proper shooting technique help!

[RMulhern]

I'd rather take a 5 gal cold water enema that use a lead sled!!lightbulb

 

[Canadian Bushman]

I'd rather take a 5 gal cold water enema that use a lead sled!!lightbulb

Wow!

 

[ShootnMathews]

I'd rather take a 5 gal cold water enema that use a lead sled!!lightbulb

Well I don't like lead sleds, but I don't hate them that much I'd rather take a stiff slap in the face over a lead sled. Which is what I deserve if you catch me using one. I'm a firm believer that if you can't practice shooting it without being afraid of the kick, then you don't need to be hunting with it. And that is different for everyone. I've seen people flinch with a 22lr. And I'll admit when I first started shooting I flinched with the big guns. But it only took me missing a huge buck once to break that. I promised myself that I'd get over that and right then. Ever since I focus on the shot, not the recoil. If I feel like I'm going to flinch I take my finger off the trigger, take a deep breath with my eyes closed, then get back on target and a smooth trigger. I think I could jump behind a tac 50 without flinching. For the first shot at least.

 

[FEENIX]

I'd rather take a 5 gal cold water enema that use a lead sled!!lightbulb

Fetish?

 

[Bigeclipse]

So guys...the one picture that shows a decent group with a bad vertical flyer (not sure if its actually a flyer or flinch or whatever) ...what are your thoughts? Can a bad load cause 3 out of 4 shots to group well or is it more likely something is going on with me flinching or my scope not holding zero?

 

[ShootnMathews]

My personal opinion is that you do not have the load tuned yet. I would set the bullet at about .015" jump and do a powder ladder test on the upper half of your charge range. For example if the book lists 42-50 grains, then I would load two shots at 46 grains to 50 grains in half grain increments. Shoot them at the 300 yards you have available. The charges that are near an accuracy node will have impacts closer together than the rest. I then latke the best load and will load 3 more 2 shot groups. One at the load already shot and one .2 grains on either side of it. Take the best charge of those and start working with the seating depth. I'll move the depth .01" at a time until I get the group under an inch then I'll move .003" at a time.

Others have different methods, this is how I do it. Works for me. I don't think you are very close to having the load tuned.

 

[WildRose]

So guys...the one picture that shows a decent group with a bad vertical flyer (not sure if its actually a flyer or flinch or whatever) ...what are your thoughts? Can a bad load cause 3 out of 4 shots to group well or is it more likely something is going on with me flinching or my scope not holding zero?

It's really hard to tell.

If you had access to a Chrony then you could see what sort of ES you have. If it's greater than 50FPS you can see all sorts of weird things happen to your groups.

Off of the top of my head reading through the whole thing my guess is that it's either a busted scope or you are flinching.

There are some easy ways to figure out if you've developed a flinch. One of the easiest is to have someone else load the rifle for you with you not looking alternating a live round randomly with an empty chamber.

Another, though not as good is to have someone balance a quarter laying flat at the end of your barrel while you practice squeezing off a few. If the quarter falls off you have developed a flinch or are just manhandling the trigger pretty badly.

A flinch isn't necessarily a fear of recoil, it can simply be anticipating it and subconsciously leaning into the rifle when you expect the recoil or to start to back away from it.

Sometimes you try "Pushing The Shot" to make it hit where you want it out of frustration which can have the same effect down range.

One thing I've found over the years that that frustration leads to bad form which leads to more frustration and more bad form in a self perpetuating cycle. If I'm having a bad day behind the trigger I know the best thing I can do is to go do something else and come back later when my head is right.

 

[FEENIX]

My personal opinion is that you do not have the load tuned yet. I would set the bullet at about .015" jump and do a powder ladder test on the upper half of your charge range. For example if the book lists 42-50 grains, then I would load two shots at 46 grains to 50 grains in half grain increments. Shoot them at the 300 yards you have available. The charges that are near an accuracy node will have impacts closer together than the rest. I then latke the best load and will load 3 more 2 shot groups. One at the load already shot and one .2 grains on either side of it. Take the best charge of those and start working with the seating depth. I'll move the depth .01" at a time until I get the group under an inch then I'll move .003" at a time.

Others have different methods, this is how I do it. Works for me. I don't think you are very close to having the load tuned.

+1!

 

[Bigeclipse]

My personal opinion is that you do not have the load tuned yet. I would set the bullet at about .015" jump and do a powder ladder t on the upper half of your charge range. For example if the book lists 42-50 grains, then I would load two shots at 46 grains to 50 grains in half grain increments. Shoot them at the 300 yards you have available. The charges that are near an accuracy node will have impacts closer together than the rest. I then latke the best load and will load 3 more 2 shot groups. One at the load already shot and one .2 grains on either side of it. Take the best charge of those and start working with the seating depth. I'll move the depth .01" at a time until I get the group under an inch then I'll move .003" at a time.

Others have different methods, this is how I do it. Works for me. I don't think you are very close to having the load tuned.

This bullet and rifle chamber will not let me come close to .015 off lands. I can safely go about .040 off...after that...the bullet will not be seated very far Into the brass...maybe .2inches. I've heard you should always load you bullets at least one caliber deep so for a 30cal bullet it should be .3 inches deep not including the boattail.

 

[Rick Richard]

Hmmmm, you eliminated the Leadsled, you checked the tightness of the scope mounts, you verified the action screws and you feel confident that it is not you.

Ony suggestions at this point is to let someone else shoot it and see what results that my be produced for comparison, try a different projectile and have a competent smith boroscope the barrel

By the way, what is the make and model of the rifle?

 

[varmintH8R]

Off of the top of my head reading through the whole thing my guess is that it's either a busted scope or you are flinching.

I tend to agree. As other posters have stated, you probably have some load tuning to do. With that said, I would be very surprised if minor differences in seating depth or powder charge took you from sub-MOA to 3-4 MOA at 100yds. When I do max-charge work-ups over the chrony at 100 yds, I generally get 3" spreads in POI over a 250 fps velocity range (from rifles that shoot).

I've had rifles that despise a specific bullet, and changing it made huge differences in accuracy. Other than that, ladder testing for powder charge and seating depth (while very useful for tuning a load) typically have given me incremental improvement (taking out a half MOA here, a quarter MOA there, etc).

I would fully eliminate equipment and form issues as potential contributors before fooling too much with the load. I can say from experience nothing is more frustrating than trying to chase down that perfect load when there is noise from some other issue stinking up your data. It leads to useless powder burned and lots of frustration.

My 2C only

Brandon

 

[Bigeclipse]

Hmmmm, you eliminated the Leadsled, you checked the tightness of the scope mounts, you verified the action screws and you feel confident that it is not you.

Ony suggestions at this point is to let someone else shoot it and see what results that my be produced for comparison, try a different projectile and have a competent smith boroscope the barrel

By the way, what is the make and model of the rifle?

The key here is that I am working up a load so I believe it is down to either the load is bad OR I broke my scope using the lead sled because as you stated I eliminated the sled from the equation by shooting the same loads off of my other set-up and getting similar results. This is a remington 700 mountain SS in 3006. I do have another scope so what I think I might do is load up the same loads I did yesterday. Throw on that other scope, and if I get similar results I know it is the loads, if suddenly the groups are great, I know it is the scope.

 

[Bigeclipse]

I tend to agree. As other posters have stated, you probably have some load tuning to do. With that said, I would be very surprised if minor differences in seating depth or powder charge took you from sub-MOA to 3-4 MOA at 100yds. When I do max-charge work-ups over the chrony at 100 yds, I generally get 3" spreads in POI over a 250 fps velocity range (from rifles that shoot).

I've had rifles that despise a specific bullet, and changing it made huge differences in accuracy. Other than that, ladder testing for powder charge and seating depth (while very useful for tuning a load) typically have given me incremental improvement (taking out a half MOA here, a quarter MOA there, etc).

I would fully eliminate equipment and form issues as potential contributors before fooling too much with the load. I can say from experience nothing is more frustrating than trying to chase down that perfect load when there is noise from some other issue stinking up your data. It leads to useless powder burned and lots of frustration.

My 2C only

Brandon

Brandon thanks. As I know I have flinched during these tests...I tend to know when i flinch and how severe. I do a lot of dry firing and have witnessed myself flinched, but even in that case the crosshairs move maybe .5-1inches at most. What I am thinking is the load I thought was just about 1 MOA may have not been as I only shot one group of 3 bullets that day. They all landed at .8inches so I said to myself good group As you can see from the above pictures I posted of the same load I shot yesterday, 3 of 4 bullets again landed at .8moa with 1 bad flyer which (yeah I know I flinched but did I really flinch that bad?) The only thing I can do is check the scope by using a different scope with the same loads I just shot. If they are still that bad then I can now be positive it is either the load or me flinching lol, but if they magically get better...5 shot groups under an inch, then it was the other scope.

Once I figure this all out, I can then procede with load development. Grrr this is a pain haha.

On a side not...during load developement, how often are you cleaning your barrel? After ever load? I know my rifle starts shooting bad after about 12 shots...so what I have been doing is shooting 2 foulers, then shooting 2 loads of 4 shots...giving me a total of 10 shots. Then cleaning the rifle and trying my next two loads in the same fashion...

 

[WildRose]

The key here is that I am working up a load so I believe it is down to either the load is bad OR I broke my scope using the lead sled because as you stated I eliminated the sled from the equation by shooting the same loads off of my other set-up and getting similar results. This is a remington 700 mountain SS in 3006. I do have another scope so what I think I might do is load up the same loads I did yesterday. Throw on that other scope, and if I get similar results I know it is the loads, if suddenly the groups are great, I know it is the scope.

Good plan. Until you can completely eliminate equipment and form issues all you are going to do is get more frustrated. You can't tune a load if the setup and shooting mechanics are not right.

If you have a load that was shooting well for you prior to all of this I'd try going back to it once you have eliminated equipment and form issues as being the problem and work out from there.

Also I think you might save yourself a lot of grief if you can get access to a chrony to look at your ES's.

Are you weighing each powder charge individually or using a volumetric powder measure?