working load, proper shooting technique help!

[Bigeclipse]

ok guys I am at my witts end. I am fairly new to hsooting technique and reloading when it comes to accuracy. I have been reloading for pistols for years, but not for accuracy. I think my reloading technique is about as good as it can get with-in my budget and i do not think it is my issue. So here is the story (please read the whole thing, sorry it is long). I worked up a load for TTSX in my 3006 mountain rifle. The best I got was about .75MOA which is great BUT it was too slow to safely push those TTSX out to 400 yards and get expansion. So I moved on to trying nosler accubonds. All I could find were 150 grainers and 200 grainers, so I opted for the 150 grain as this is solely a deer rifle. I thought I had a decent load, it was just under 1MOA when someone recommended I use a bullet comparator to get almost perfect seating depths. So I got one. I then proceded to seat a bullet to the length that I did before (with out comparator), then measured it with the comparator to get the ogive length and then seated 4 others to that ogive length, so in theory...these rounds should be about the same overall length as my previous loads, just more consistant from shot to shot. Well I went to the range yesterday and dissaster struck. 2-3MOA! ***...

Now there so many variables that my head is spinning. The first load that I shot last week which was the one that was just under 1 MOA I shot off a caldwell rock front rest and a rear bag. A noteable bench comp shooter at our range suggested that when working a load up I use a leadsled to eliminate human error so I would know for sure it was a good load. Well I went out yesterday with my new rounds that were measured with the comparator and a led slead....and that is when I got 2-3MOA with two different loads (5 that were the original length and 5 which were seated .010 longer to see if accuracy improved over my original load).
I am not sure what the heck is going on so I did some research last night and it could be so many things. I didnt put any weight in the front of the led slead, so in theory the recoil could have been slamming the back causing the front to bounce? The sled could have damaged the internals of my scope, I have heard of this happening before although reports state it is mainly rifle stocks that get damaged and only when the led sleds are over weighted. It could be scope mounts, although I checked and they seam to be tight. It could be action screw torque, but I have been consistantly torquing front screw to 50in and rear to 45in....people have warned me that remington bottom metal can be weak so to stay away from the 65in/lbs that my B&C stock is rated for.
Seeing as the rifle has never shot this bad/inconsistant it HAS to be the the things I changed in this last range trip...so the things that changed are:
1) measuring with comparator...which I dont think its that.
2)Using a leadsled causing my rifle to bounce (could be that).
OR the worst case scenerio...
3) the led slead damaged my scope.

So to end my story. I worked up the same loads I tried yesterday and today I am going back to my caldwell ROCK front and rear bag set-up to see if I get the same terrible results.
The questions I have are why does my rifle like to bounce a little, even when on this set-up? I watch others shoot and their rifles recoil back but do not bounce up at all. Is the bag that is on the front caldwell rock tripod thing to hard? Should I place some cloth or a sock or something for extra cussion? What is the best technique? I tried the whole put only a little weight on the rifle thing with your shoulder and trigger hand and that is where I result with a very bouncy rifle, where as if I hold the rifle to my shoulder with my trigger hand, and keep my thumb near the safety (basically around the grip) it bounces very little. I am so confused and hunting season is right around the corner. If today's loads shoot bad, I will be swapping the scope out tonight.
So what is everyone's suggestions on how I procede? Please comment on everything and anything from shooting positions while working up a load to checking my rifle scope (not sure how to do that except for swapping out to a new scope)

 

[varmintH8R]

I think your plan of getting away from the lead-sled is sound. Go back to front rest/rear bag and see what results you get.

I am assuming as a mountain rifle, your set-up is fairly lightweight. This probably contributes to your bouncing. Lighter rifles and higher-recoiling rifles (for me) are more prone to being finicky for how they are held. I have one stubborn rifle in particular that I can move POI a TON by slightly altering shoulder pressure.

I would strongly recommend shooting from field positions to get a sense of how your rifle responds - it may be a good lesson you learned using the sled that saves you some grief in the field.

A few quick questions:

What distance are you shooting at (going .75MOA to 3MOA)?

Are your spreads primarily verticle, horizontal, or random?

What kind of scope are you running, and what is your ring set-up?

Hope you find an easy and obvious solution here!

Brandon

 

[Bigeclipse]

I think your plan of getting away from the lead-sled is sound. Go back to front rest/rear bag and see what results you get.

I am assuming as a mountain rifle, your set-up is fairly lightweight. This probably contributes to your bouncing. Lighter rifles and higher-recoiling rifles (for me) are more prone to being finicky for how they are held. I have one stubborn rifle in particular that I can move POI a TON by slightly altering shoulder pressure.

I would strongly recommend shooting from field positions to get a sense of how your rifle responds - it may be a good lesson you learned using the sled that saves you some grief in the field.

A few quick questions:

What distance are you shooting at (going .75MOA to 3MOA)?

Are your spreads primarily verticle, horizontal, or random?

What kind of scope are you running, and what is your ring set-up?

Hope you find an easy and obvious solution here!

Brandon

All of my tests have been at 100 yards. I have the ability to go to 200 or 300, but I have not shot to 300 a lot so mostly comfortable keeping it to 100 or 200.

The spreads appear to be random. The first time out using the leadsled I was getting the typical triangular 3-5 shot group, yesterday was completely random group although I only shot the 2 groups. The crazy part was in the the second group, the first shot was almost touching the second shot and then shot 3 and 4 were 2-3 inches away. This is with 5 minutes inbetween shots to allow the barrel to cool a bit since it is a light barrel. Yes it could be coincidence that the first two shots were almost touching but i couldnt believe it. It has to be the gun reacting weird in the sled...or the sled broke my scope and it is not holding zero anymore.

The scope is a burris fullfield II 4.5-16x42(definitely not high end but has had a decent reputation) and the rings are talley ring/base 1-piece which have also have decent reputation or so I have heard. this rifle is my primary mountain rifle (I am building a long range rifle at the moment) so i did not want to upgrade it with high end optics and crazy expensive rings. The rifle will only be used to max 400 yards (after I practice a lot of course at those distances) and that is why I am searching for a 1MOA load or less.

 

[FEENIX]

I have been using lead sled for many years now during load development without any problems or damage to any of my rifles. Once I'm satisfied with my load; I shoot prone with bipod and rear bag/bipod buddy.

I also have the same scope on my Ruger M77 MKII in .338 Win Mag using 225g NABs on lead sled w/o any issues.

 

[Bigeclipse]

I have been using lead sled for many years now during load development without any problems or damage to any of my rifles. Once I'm satisfied with my load; I shoot prone with bipod and rear bag/bipod buddy.

I also have the same scope on my Ruger M77 MKII in .338 Win Mag using 225g NABs on lead sled w/o any issues.

Well then I am wondering if the sled is bouncing my lighter rifle or something weird is going on...to go from .8 inch groups to 3-4 inch groups was shocking. Unless the comparator is doing something weird to my measurements

 

[Canadian Bushman]

I personally always test the way i shoot and hunt. Every shot is done with my shoulder. This gives me results i can confidently reproduce in the field.

Rifles need to recoil. In the field, you cannot reproduce a shot where the rifle does not recoil. If im having trouble getting steady i will use more rest. Sometimes shooting off a bipod and a backpack, rolled up towels, stacking blocks under the rear rest etc.

Rifles don't just recoil back they also twist, left unsupported or uncontrolled this twisting can wreak havoc. Getting the barrel as close to the support and widening the stance is what helps this.

I highly doubt the comparator is the problem, but it could be the the way you are using it.

So I got one. I then proceded to seat a bullet to the length that I did before (with out comparator), then measured it with the comparator to get the ogive length and then seated 4 others to that ogive length, so in theory...these rounds should be about the same overall length as my previous loads, just more consistant from shot to shot.

You could of changed your seating depth here.
If you have a finicky load it doesn't always take much to throw it out of tune, and ive had hpbt vary as much as .015" from tip to tip.

My recommendation is to perform a seating test again using the bullet comparator and shooting the way you did the first time with careful attention to form, trigger control and natural point of aim.

 

[Rick Richard]

Doubt it is the comparator. Even if your off .030 or.040 with seating depth, I don't believe it will make that significant of a group size at the distance your shooting.

I believe it is in the way you have changed your shooting technique. I have a Leadsled and have used it for a long time and have had varying results. Some rifles it made no difference, however with a couple it would do as your experiencing.

As others have indicated, shoot it as you would in the field. This will provide a more natural recoil....off bags or prone.

And, are your sure all the mounts are tight?

 

[Bigeclipse]

Doubt it is the comparator. Even if your off .030 or.040 with seating depth, I don't believe it will make that significant of a group size at the distance your shooting.

I believe it is in the way you have changed your shooting technique. I have a Leadsled and have used it for a long time and have had varying results. Some rifles it made no difference, however with a couple it would do as your experiencing.

As others have indicated, shoot it as you would in the field. This will provide a more natural recoil....off bags or prone.

And, are your sure all the mounts are tight?

Well we will certainly see tonight if it was the shooting technique! Good to know someone else had a rifle that hated the sled...lets hope thats what mine is.
My mounts were tight prior to using the sled...I guess the recoil of the sled could have loosened them up but I did blue loktight them.

I personally always test the way i shoot and hunt. Every shot is done with my shoulder. This gives me results i can confidently reproduce in the field.

I highly doubt the comparator is the problem, but it could be the the way you are using it.

You could of changed your seating depth here.
If you have a finicky load it doesn't always take much to throw it out of tune, and ive had hpbt vary as much as .015" from tip to tip.

My recommendation is to perform a seating test again using the bullet comparator and shooting the way you did the first time with careful attention to form, trigger control and natural point of aim.

I understand what you are saying but I think im closer to within .005 of the original seating depth. When I was measuring with out a comparator from tip to tip...I would seat all my rounds to exactly 3.308 from base to tip. This was before I found out about ogive and such, so I would be unable to know exactly what depth I was seating to but even so...I never had any groups above 1.5 inches at a hundred yards...not matter what depth I tried with this load. So i figured what I would do with the comparator was seat a round to my original tip length of 3.308. I did this with ta few different rounds. Then I measured ogive of them and took the average to get the ogive seating depth based off a tip seating depth of 3.308. Most were within .003 of each other but the extreme spread was .007 away from eachother so quite a bit but not SUPER HUGE to make a group go from just under 1MOA to 3-4MOA...or at least I would hope it wouldnt haha. We will see how tonight goes. Im praying it was the sled causing me issues and not the bullets or worse yet, my scope being broken.

 

[Bigeclipse]

You can see in one photo 3 of 4 are close...decent group but not sure what happened with the one that went way above the rest...I did flinch on that shot so who knows. The other picture you can see how terrible a group that was. The first picture was an give length of 2.700 the second is 2.710...maybe I should try going to 2.690 and see what happens but you can see how poorly it is grouping now. This was today using the regular rest and rear bag not the led sled.

The pics are turned side ways by the way...the way the numbers would be upright is the correct orientation.

 

[ShootnMathews]

I'd say it is the way the lead sled is effecting the recoil of the rifle. I too always shoot from prone with a bipod and a rear bag. There are no shooting benches or sleds on top of the mountain.

As far as seating depth, it is possible for that much change in depth to make a difference. With nosler ballistic tips in my latest long range rifle, .003" in depth makes the difference between a 3/4" group and shooting one ragged hole at 100 yards.

 

[ShootnMathews]

Have you done a ladder test or any kind of charge test to find the best charge weight???

 

[Bigeclipse]

Have you done a ladder test or any kind of charge test to find the best charge weight???

No ladder test but did a charge test and the current load was the best

 

[Bigeclipse]

I'd say it is the way the lead sled is effecting the recoil of the rifle. I too always shoot from prone with a bipod and a rear bag. There are no shooting benches or sleds on top of the mountain.

As far as seating depth, it is possible for that much change in depth to make a difference. With nosler ballistic tips in my latest long range rifle, .003" in depth makes the difference between a 3/4" group and shooting one ragged hole at 100 yards.

The pictures above are from today off a regular rest and rear bag...not the lead sled and they are still bad.

 

[FEENIX]

Last weekend I managed to have some range time to break-in a new rifle and the set-up is as seen below. I have to adjust accordingly when using the lead sled because I cannot cradle it as good as I want like my normal shooting stance (prone). Also, it changes my LOP. But somehow I managed to adapt.

Another advantage of using the lead sled is I can transition from barrel cleaning to shooting with ease.

I was using factory ammo.

Below is a 100 yard group after 20 shot break-in.

(Shots 21-23)

Below is a 200 yard group.

(Shots 28-30)

Total shots fired: 30

I understand that lead sled is not for everybody but it can be beneficial for others; it definitely serves my intended purpose well.