What’s up with Hornady’s reloading podcast?

[RockyMtnMT]

Same here. If I'm not trying to squeeze the utmost velocity by trying different powders, I am usually done and verifying dope in 20-30 rounds. Today for instance loading for a buddy in 6.5 creedmoor I'm going straight to 40.5gr h4350, 140eld at book length. I am very confident it will work and he can get straight to practicing in field positions on steel.

Don't you know that you are relying on luck? You need to shoot ten shot groups in .2gr increments in order to narrow down the best performance. Once you have done that then you can begin to tune the load with ten shot groups from seated at the lands to 100 thou off in one thou increments. While doing this you need to continuously measure your lands in order to compensate for throat erosion. If you don't do this then you don't actually know what works best and you are just relying on luck again. After you have done all of this and it turns out that 40.5gr of h4350 at book length shoots best it will be a legit load. Any less and it is just luck.

I couldn't resist!!

 

[hawg chaser]

I am in Australia, I have to input that brass, get permits etc, etc and I'm not doing that to be stung exorbitant costs. I don't even know if Peterson make 416 Rigby brass…

Cheers.

I didn't realize that you're in Australia. To my knowledge, Peterson doesn't make Rigby brass, but the 416 Rigby, 338 Lapua, and 33 xc all share the same case head diameter. The Lapua case is slightly shorter than the Rigby case, but the xc is quite a bit longer. That's why I mentioned it.

 

[willfrye027]

Don't you know that you are relying on luck? You need to shoot ten shot groups in .2gr increments in order to narrow down the best performance. Once you have done that then you can begin to tune the load with ten shot groups from seated at the lands to 100 thou off in one thou increments. While doing this you need to continuously measure your lands in order to compensate for throat erosion. If you don't do this then you don't actually know what works best and you are just relying on luck again. After you have done all of this and it turns out that 40.5gr of h4350 at book length shoots best it will be a legit load. Any less and it is just luck.

I couldn't resist!!

Thankfully the hornady boys already tested that with a lot more shots so I don't need to

 

[quandary]

I'm a bit confused. I've heard of the first podcast episode you referenced, and tend to agree with the premise that more than three or five shots need to be fired to determine group size. I've not heard the second podcast you mentioned. Are you saying Hornady is telling folks they need a 20 shot group to determine group size (first podcast) and they are also saying a reloader can determine a loads accuracy with just two shots after a change? Those two directly conflict with each other, so I must be misunderstanding?

No that's not what they said.

I remember reading something about Hornady saying something about small samples not meaning anything and causing quite a ruckus but I never really paid much attention to it all. I just watched a portion of a fairly recent YouTube video where they were discussing reloading while I'm healing up from a pulled wisdom tooth. Man, I feel sorry for all the folks that are sucked into their advice. I never watched the whole thing but it almost sounded like one of them was saying bullet seating didn't have much effect and a couple shots of a random powder charge would let a guy know if it was a good combination or not. Neither of these are what I've found through the years. Good grief. Eventually the truth will come out and I hope they have the honor to come back and admit they were misinforming people.

People that haven't really listened to the podcasts yet comment clearly don't understand what the Hornady folks are saying. Nor do they understand the methodology and findings of their testing. Hornady did a statistically valid test with given calibers and reported those findings. The results of that test are inarguable, they are what they are. They also state clearly, many times, we are not telling you what you are doing is wrong. As a reloader you need taken in data and decide what you want to do and if you like your process and results, great. They are simply telling the listener that testing based on 3 or 5 shot samples is statistically invalid. Anyone who had statistics classes would understand this. They are simply offering an alternative approach based on valid sampling that will save time and components.

Another good podcast on this topic is Erik Cortina's podcast with the Hornady ballistician. They actually agree on far more than the differ. Also interesting is that the Unknown Munitions guys are fully onboard with the valid statistical sampling approach as well for both load development and zeroing.

One last thing I think the Hornady ammo is not all that great. I also don't have any Hornady reloading equipment other than the the OAL gauge. That doesn't invalidate what they found in a statistically valid test.

 

[PlumberEd]

I think it is @orkan at Primal Rights that had the "dot drill" targets. On those he had like 1/4" dots, maybe twenty on a target in which he shoots one shot at each dot.

I see what you mean about those targets. Thanks.

 

[R. Cram]

I have been saying this here since I started shooting F-class. When I started, we only had short and middle length ranges, 300-600 metres.
I had a mentor the first season and he showed me that everybody was shooting their test loads at 300 metres, all ladders, all groups and that was how it was done. After the 300 metre testing, verification of the load was shot at 600 metres with several 10 shot groups looking for the tightest and most uniform AGGREGATE.
As has been said, a load DOES change, and atmospheric conditions can and do play havoc with a load. We shoot on the coast one week, then up at elevation the next at 880 metres elevation, your load does not stay the same between those 2 conditions. Barrel tuners help, but we also use an air density gauge.
Now, talking aggregates and differing conditions, my 6.5x47 Lapua has an extremely accurate load at my home range on the coast, but it completely falls apart everywhere else, so my next best load stays about the same no matter where I shoot and can be dialled in by a click up or down on the tuner at each different range, yet, it never prints as good as my home range load…
So, my question to you all that think a 3 shot group, or a 5 shot group, is really telling you anything?
I shoot my 10 shot verifying loads on different days at different times, just like in competition, because I can tell you what's extreme precision today, can turn into extreme poo the next…
Also, ES & SD are NOT the fundamental cause for an extremely precise group as many think.

Cheers.

I saw the ladder test in a High Power information book and it was developed by a very good highpower shooter 40 plus years ago, its not a new idea and he stated it needed to be done at 300 or more yards. I think 3 shot groups could show you a bad load but they might not but are totally worthless for development of a good load, their use is for typewriter competition with the other 3 shot guys, how could you compair you results with another persons if you are shooting 5 or more shots and he is shooting 3. Also I never shoot at 100 yds, out of laziness I shoot at 200, I also don't have a bench I believe I am able to shoot 1/2 min with my sling off my elbow and when I develop loads at least I am getting some meaningfull practice in as well. I read some place that a 7 round group gave almost as much statistical info as 10 so if a group looks promising a person could verify it with 7 rounds and maybe it could work out. If you check the military's procedure for ammo verifying 100 shot groups are the norm but they have much bigger checkbooks than we do. There is some truth to the fact that sometimes a load/rifle can shoot well at close range and not do well at longer range, I took my hunting rifle to a 600,800,900,and 1000 yd match last weekend and with a load that shot well at 200 it shot poorly, 196 with 4x's at 600 in calm conditions and much worse at 800, so poorly I didn't shoot it at 900 or 1000 because if the rifle won't shoot better than the shooter can then no meaningfull info can be derived from the shots.I didn't take my own advice a month ago and there was a M1 garand match I wanted to shoot in andI like shooting not load development so I made a load that shot well for 5 shots at 200 yds and wanted to believe the results so I made 500 rnds and while practicing with them I found out my 5 shot group lied to me and in reality the load won't hold the 10 ring on the nra target so now I get to pull bullets.

 

[MagnumManiac]

I didn't realize that you're in Australia. To my knowledge, Peterson doesn't make Rigby brass, but the 416 Rigby, 338 Lapua, and 33 xc all share the same case head diameter. The Lapua case is slightly shorter than the Rigby case, but the xc is quite a bit longer. That's why I mentioned it.

I see that I could easily use Peterson 33XC brass, which is what I was going to use once this barrel is gone, I can set-back and run the XC reamer in, but I won't get another set-back from this barrel after another 900 rounds, without serious planning.

Cheers.

 

[Prieto9000]

Two people who have something to sell! Thank you! Pass! I have 10 rifles each in a different caliber! Like I said, works for me.
Another so "scientific" thing, a competitive shooter, many of you follow, did a study when Browning had the patent. Said they didn't work. Now, he sells his version, all of a sudden they work!
Hornady is an infomercial! My opinion only

What's there to sell for hornady?? They're not trying to sell you a better solution for the tunner.

 

[asd9055]

What's there to sell for hornady?? They're not trying to sell you a better solution for the tunner.

You take a response to one line, apply it to another and make your wise comments.So here is my wise reply: hornady has bullets, brass, ammo and tools to sell! Does that answer your question.
I said many times I am done. And you guys keep coming! Go ahead watch and buy! Good luck