I think it is @orkan at Primal Rights that had the "dot drill" targets. On those he had like 1/4" dots, maybe twenty on a target in which he shoots one shot at each dot.
What’s up with Hornady’s reloading podcast?
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Or would if give dispersion resulting from the shooter or environmental differences instead of actual ammo/gun performance? The shooter has already stated that his shooting changes when shooting long strings of fire. Just like some cold bore shots are actually cold shooter errors. Regardless of the results the target tells the story. As shooters all we can do is strive to achieve our personal accuracy level, weather it is improving rifle, ammo, or shooting ability. The Hornady podcasters have said/reported their acceptable results/finding for themselves. Find what works for you and what you are willing to settle for. The pursuit of perfection can be addicting and is not necessarily or enjoyable for every one to enjoy the sport. Also you do not have to be challenged by shooters in pursuit of perfection or using different methods to achieve their goals.
MagnumManiac
Well-Known Member
I have been saying this here since I started shooting F-class. When I started, we only had short and middle length ranges, 300-600 metres.
I had a mentor the first season and he showed me that everybody was shooting their test loads at 300 metres, all ladders, all groups and that was how it was done. After the 300 metre testing, verification of the load was shot at 600 metres with several 10 shot groups looking for the tightest and most uniform AGGREGATE.
As has been said, a load DOES change, and atmospheric conditions can and do play havoc with a load. We shoot on the coast one week, then up at elevation the next at 880 metres elevation, your load does not stay the same between those 2 conditions. Barrel tuners help, but we also use an air density gauge.
Now, talking aggregates and differing conditions, my 6.5x47 Lapua has an extremely accurate load at my home range on the coast, but it completely falls apart everywhere else, so my next best load stays about the same no matter where I shoot and can be dialled in by a click up or down on the tuner at each different range, yet, it never prints as good as my home range load…
So, my question to you all that think a 3 shot group, or a 5 shot group, is really telling you anything?
I shoot my 10 shot verifying loads on different days at different times, just like in competition, because I can tell you what's extreme precision today, can turn into extreme poo the next…
Also, ES & SD are NOT the fundamental cause for an extremely precise group as many think.
Cheers.
I had a mentor the first season and he showed me that everybody was shooting their test loads at 300 metres, all ladders, all groups and that was how it was done. After the 300 metre testing, verification of the load was shot at 600 metres with several 10 shot groups looking for the tightest and most uniform AGGREGATE.
As has been said, a load DOES change, and atmospheric conditions can and do play havoc with a load. We shoot on the coast one week, then up at elevation the next at 880 metres elevation, your load does not stay the same between those 2 conditions. Barrel tuners help, but we also use an air density gauge.
Now, talking aggregates and differing conditions, my 6.5x47 Lapua has an extremely accurate load at my home range on the coast, but it completely falls apart everywhere else, so my next best load stays about the same no matter where I shoot and can be dialled in by a click up or down on the tuner at each different range, yet, it never prints as good as my home range load…
So, my question to you all that think a 3 shot group, or a 5 shot group, is really telling you anything?
I shoot my 10 shot verifying loads on different days at different times, just like in competition, because I can tell you what's extreme precision today, can turn into extreme poo the next…
Also, ES & SD are NOT the fundamental cause for an extremely precise group as many think.
Cheers.
6.5x300 WBY
Well-Known Member
Great idea. Need some new fun. I'll give that a go
FireFlyFishing
Well-Known Member
Looks like I'm late to the party, but I'll throw out a couple of things to note.
I listened to this podcast on the plane yesterday. I was interested hearing what those folks at Hornady are doing….that's going to be way different than what most folks are doing.
Some take aways for me were:
Them discussing how more tinkering would likely be need with older cartridges. The Hornady cartridges they're using, make loading so easy a monkey can do it. Same if you had a fancy rifle with a custom barrel and tight chamber…which these guys are definitely using.
So I didn't disagree with their methods, but you have to take what they were saying into context with the rifles and equipment they using. I'd be interested to hear what components they're winning or placing top 10 in comps. My guess is not all Hornady components.
I listened to this podcast on the plane yesterday. I was interested hearing what those folks at Hornady are doing….that's going to be way different than what most folks are doing.
Some take aways for me were:
Them discussing how more tinkering would likely be need with older cartridges. The Hornady cartridges they're using, make loading so easy a monkey can do it. Same if you had a fancy rifle with a custom barrel and tight chamber…which these guys are definitely using.
So I didn't disagree with their methods, but you have to take what they were saying into context with the rifles and equipment they using. I'd be interested to hear what components they're winning or placing top 10 in comps. My guess is not all Hornady components.
MagnumManiac
Well-Known Member
This is pure fantasy. There are several old cartridges that are precision machines and shoot rings around even today's cartridges.
6.5x55, 6.5-284, 7x68 & many others, including belted magnums that have so much myth attached to them it is mind boggling.
Hornady are HYPE MONGERS…everything they say needs to be taken with a very large grain of salt, because it is just to SELL their mediocre products…
Show me an old cartridge that is easy to tune side by side with a new design, the differences wouldn't even be noteworthy.
Cheers.
FireFlyFishing
Well-Known Member
Look, I'm not a Hornady follower/fan boy. However, their newer cartridge designs are smart relative to many of the cartridges of yesteryear. To the degree factory ammo in these cartridges shoot pretty well in a run of the mill factory rifle. There is something to be said for that. Sales of these cartridges prove people like them whether they listen to the aggravating marketing Hornady spews or not. I scratch my head often when I do listen to their podcasts, but surprisingly this one wasn't one of them.
I did disagree with them regarding seating depth though on this particular podcast.
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willfrye027
Well-Known Member
That's some good shooting. Honestly you are not giving yourself enough credit. I would attribute your results to physics and the fact that barrels shooting true .2 groups are extremely rare. You've got a great shooting barrel there and the guy behind the trigger is doing his part!
I'd wager that if you were to arbitrarily drop your powder charge a grain, and your seating depth .01…the aggregate of that group would not be statistically different than what you have.
This would depend on the particular bullet, what kind of ogive, and assume similar atmospheric conditions that would not prevent you from aiming at the bullseye.
6.5x300 WBY
Well-Known Member
Sierra 107 MK.. as I stated up above that this picture has the possibility of being my 22 and not my 6cm. I with drew a post due to my uncertainty to offer true valid data. But if this is/was my 22, my 6 cm shoots very comparable to it. I already dropped my powder charge 1gr because I wanted to hit a certain velocity. But my accuracy was poopoo. About .8 low .9 so I went full on testing ladder to find pressure. Then ocw. Then seating test. After all that I got my .2 to .3 load. I wish I was a better shot cause I truly feel it's a better load than I am shooter.
My freaking heart beating F's me up too much. If I can find a way to stop it from beating and bouncing my reticle all over it would be much better.
I keep trying, but it just maybe my rear bag, and not being able to keep my gun secure and stable.
Regardless of caliber, if I have a gun shooting multiple groups as shown in your photo, I am definitely done tinkering and heading to the long range for some fun and dope assessment. Regardless of whether the insignificant variation is from the round or the shooter, great shooting. I look forward to the day that my heartbeat is the reason for the additional .1 in my groups!
I've definitely been guilt of getting excited about a tiny 3-shot 100 yard or so group, only to be humbled by following groups. I agree that extended range groups are where you find the proof in the pudding, assuming extended range is your goal for the development.
Being relatively new to the handloading side of things, and therefore participating in forums primarily to learn (I look forward to when I am the one with the infinite wisdom!), I've found it interesting that a sport/ hobby/ profession/ etc that has been around so long has so many relatively new processes and "discoveries". I suspect this is why it is such an interesting hobby.
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ridgewalker
Well-Known Member
All very interesting views including the Hornady podcast and Tyler Freel. I don't trust Freel's opinion after his article on hunting brown bear with a 6.5 Creedmoor. I think he runs a high risk of getting someone hurt or even killed after writing that.
I am a hunter and not a competitive shooter so I only shoot maybe 1,000-1,500 rounds a year and that is through a half dozen different cartridges. Been doing this since the early 1960s. I learn something new at least every year and occasionally weekly. All fascinating! Lots of " dugh" moments.
I'm a retired engineer, so a bit of a nerd. Somethings make more since than others and some crazy things I have to prove to myself.
I'd be willing to bet 10 years from now this will mostly be questioned again and maybe by another test proven something else is wrong or right.
I have my on reloading methodology as primarily being a hunter, ie if the first shot from a cold dirty bore doesn't go where it's suppose to, it is likely me and not the reload. I test this on different days in different weather conditions and on occasion, different altitudes. Lucky that I can change altitudes by several thousand feet within a brief drive.
Not a fan of Hornady bullets, brass, nor reloading equipment (dies have failed me more than any other brand), but I do use some of each for certain purposes. Varmints in particular.
In conclusion, if you have a methodology that works for your purposes…great! My simple method has worked well for me for now. Who knows about tomorrow though.
Enjoy your life and times! It likely will change soon.
I am a hunter and not a competitive shooter so I only shoot maybe 1,000-1,500 rounds a year and that is through a half dozen different cartridges. Been doing this since the early 1960s. I learn something new at least every year and occasionally weekly. All fascinating! Lots of " dugh" moments.
I'm a retired engineer, so a bit of a nerd. Somethings make more since than others and some crazy things I have to prove to myself.
I'd be willing to bet 10 years from now this will mostly be questioned again and maybe by another test proven something else is wrong or right.
I have my on reloading methodology as primarily being a hunter, ie if the first shot from a cold dirty bore doesn't go where it's suppose to, it is likely me and not the reload. I test this on different days in different weather conditions and on occasion, different altitudes. Lucky that I can change altitudes by several thousand feet within a brief drive.
Not a fan of Hornady bullets, brass, nor reloading equipment (dies have failed me more than any other brand), but I do use some of each for certain purposes. Varmints in particular.
In conclusion, if you have a methodology that works for your purposes…great! My simple method has worked well for me for now. Who knows about tomorrow though.
Enjoy your life and times! It likely will change soon.
So, I just started load development for my 25 Creedmoor. Barrel already has 200 rounds through it. Found a decent load with 121 Hammers to get me through this passed hunting season. I then bought some 115 Tipped Hammers to try out. I loaded a 10 shot ladder from 36gr - 40.5gr of H4350. Here is the 10 shot group.
I figured if 10 shots grouped like that over 4.5 grains, I could pick any charge weight and it would probably group pretty good. So I picked 40.2gr to get the most velo without hitting pressure. As 40.5 is pretty close. Here were the results a couple of days later.
Then I loaded 5 more and shot this group a few days later.
I deleted one shot due to an error I made during loading. I accidentally spilled some powder out of one round after I put up everything. That round shot 2966fps and it still grouped with the others. I never messed with seating depth. I stayed at 20 off the lands. Im just just 20 total rounds in for this load. Since this rifle is for hunting, I was happy with the results and stopped there. This was at 100yds as I don't have access to shoot further. Sorry for the long post, just wanted to share my experience.
I figured if 10 shots grouped like that over 4.5 grains, I could pick any charge weight and it would probably group pretty good. So I picked 40.2gr to get the most velo without hitting pressure. As 40.5 is pretty close. Here were the results a couple of days later.
Then I loaded 5 more and shot this group a few days later.
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Lots of talk about tuners in this discussion too. They are also under fire for the same reason. People are "tuning" with 3 shot groups. Not statistically significant.
Reloadingallday posted a test on IG with a tuner. 3 shot groups on 7 days, 21 shots per tuner setting. The tuner showed no significant advantage.
Similar result found by Bryan Litz. Although I just learned by someone in this thread that Bryan doesn't know what he's talking about
Reloadingallday posted a test on IG with a tuner. 3 shot groups on 7 days, 21 shots per tuner setting. The tuner showed no significant advantage.
Similar result found by Bryan Litz. Although I just learned by someone in this thread that Bryan doesn't know what he's talking about
FireFlyFishing
Well-Known Member
I'm guessing that's going to work for ya.
