GAP talked my buddy out of a 300 RUM

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by secondofangle, Dec 13, 2011.

  1. secondofangle

    secondofangle Active Member

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    and said he should get a 7mm WSM or 300 WM for long range hunting of deer and elk. He went with the 300 WM.

    The reasoning given was that the recoil of the 300 RUM is too much (but my buddy is going to use a brake or suppressor, and they knew that?~?~)

    Thoughts on the reasoning here? Any reason to favor 7WSM or 300 WM over 300 RUM for long range hunting?

    Is there a bias against RUM or for 7 WSM, or is the reasonign sound?

    SOA
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2011
  2. jeff 300

    jeff 300 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds dumb to me but what do i know. I do know I'll stick with my 338EDGE. i have never felt over gunned
     

  3. 5280yotes

    5280yotes Well-Known Member

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    I can shoot my 300rum all day with 200g+ bullets and a stiff charge of retumbo. I have a 3port muscle brake on it and it recoils like a 25-06 on a good day.
     
  4. Oliveralan

    Oliveralan Well-Known Member

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    A heavy, braked 300 RUM is not bad to shoot... and honestly how many people shoot more than 30rounds through that large a caliber within a day's shooting anyway.

    I guess 300 RUM isn't "in" in the tacticool world like the 7 WSM or 300 WM.

    A 300 RUM is a significant performance step up from a 300 win mag, while also superior to the 7 WSM ballistically, it is a big step up in kinetic energy on target!

    300 win mag is a good choice if this rifle will be getting a lot of range time, but for a dedicated 600-1200yard LR hunting hammer i would have gone with the RUM, if i'm staying in a standard .700" dia action and didn't want to step up to 338 caliber.
     
  5. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    If I were building a 5-7lbs rig, I'd probably agree that the recoil of the RUM is going to be too much for most people.

    Hell most people think that a 7mm Rem Mag is a "brute" when it comes to recoil.

    I shoot a 6.5lbs 300wm without a brake as well as a 10lbs Rum with a Gentry muzzle brake on it and I promise you the Rum is a much more fun gun to shoot.

    The GAP guys are all about tactical rifles and shooting targets and I doubt that many if any of them have shot many Elk or big hogs at long range.

    The 300 WM will suffice for 99.999% of hunters needs though and it's a round that GAP builds a lot of guns around, and I suspect the latter is the biggest consideration in their recommendation.
     
  6. Broz

    Broz Well-Known Member

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    He might be happier down the road. I have owned many large 30's all the way up to a 30-378 and I had a few of those. When I built a full custom a few years ago I went with a 300 WM. It is all I need up to elk sized game to 1000 with 210 Bergers. And it has stacked up tons of game. I don't miss the larger cases at all and I am more than pleased with the 1/2 moa accuracy of the 300 WM to 1000 yards. Nothing against the others, but the 300 WM is hard to beat in my eyes.

    Jeff
     
  7. a10xrifle

    a10xrifle Active Member

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    Your Freind, (A Very nice guy I might add) asked me a simple question "what caliber would I choose for long range shooting?" I fairly quickly told him 7MM WSM and added that its mainly becouse of the BC of the 7mm Bullets and the ability to get them to about 3000 FPS. He then asked what if it were between the 300 Win Mag and the 300 RUM , I told him the 300 Win Mag. He nodded and I told him most guys that get a 300 Rum end up regretting it. I left the room and your freind made his own decision!!

    OK why the 7m WSM , The BC and Sectional Density of the 7mm VLD's are tops. the Berger Hunting Hybrid ( Widden Pointed ) has a BC near .740 (verified) With RL17 and Superformance it makes 2950 to 3030 in a 26" barrel. all in a Short action caliber. Recoil is about 1/2 the recoil of the 300 RUM with the 230's and 240's which are the only bullets with even close to a BC of the 7mm. Why is this Important

    Practice, Your freind said the main reason for this purchase was that he missed a big elk and wanted to get a rifle to better his chances. The Rifle does not do this, the shooter does and if your freind is going to practice shots from 600-800 yards and get good enough to constitly make these shots at these distances he will be shooting alot of ammo. The 300 Rum will not be a fair choice for him to learn with. The 7mm WSM is alot better as the recoil will be less and help in the learning curve . The rifle will also allow a couple thousand rounds prior to re-barrel then the 700-800 round 300RUM. Anyone telling somone to go get a 300 RUM and you will be able to make shoots at 800 yards is plain and simply full of shit and has watched way to much TV and Internet Crap.

    Case in Point, a couple years ago in West Virginia we were on the Bottom of the ASC Course (algnehey Sniper chalenge) there is a Target at the Top of the Mountain thats actully shot from a different place. From where we were it lased 1997 yards with a Vector 21. I asked if we could take a couple swings at it. I had a 25" barreled 7mm WSM shooting 180 Bergers, My freind and good shooting buddy Jeff Badley was shooting the same but with 175 Sierra VLD's There was another shooter there with a 338 Extreme (408 Cheytac necked to 338). I figured 25.5 Mils elevation for the DA, and 3.5 mils of left wind and let one fly the time of flight was over 3 seconds. My bullet hit 4 inches right but centered perfectly with the target verticly basicly it was 13" from a dead center hit and it would have knocked an Elks Dick in the Dirt. I fired a second shot and was 4 inches from my first Impact. Jeff took a shot and hit the target on his first shot about 5 inches high and 3 right." The guy with the Super 338 Mag shot a Box and a half and never even got within 10 feet of the target. My rifle was on its second barrel and Jeff ownes 3, 7mm WSM rifles. The guy with the 338 Extreme thought the rifle would do the shooting for him.

    Rifles and calibers are only tools the Markman (yourself) has to have the knoledge to make the bullet strike the target.

    Ill Steal this from a well known Instructor " Long Range Shooting is alot more about thinking than pulling the trigger"!!!!

    Ill make one more observance then Ill quit. I know one guy out of all my vast freinds and aquantances that actully hunts for a living. and I mean he gets paid to wake up in the AM grab his favirite hunting gear and hit the woods 365 days a year (weather permiting) and hunt when he is not working he is hunting for himself and guides others. Most of his hunting is pretty much LR hunting 300-1000 Yards. This guy has killed more Deer , Elk, and Antelope than anyone I know or have read about and more coyotes than you can imagine. If you were to ask him what his favorite LR hunting caliber is it would be between 308 Win, 260 and 6mm XC. This is possible becouse of his knoledge and experience!!! You guys here on LR Hunting probably know who im talking about!

    OP, your freind was wise to pick a 300 WM, Ammo is easy to get and alot cheeper, there is a huge selection over 300 RUM, he can find 300 Win Mag in just about any hardware store in the US. And he can practice alot without the recoil and the barrel wear of the 300 RUM. later if he wants he can step up to a big Mag and push the envelope.

    Some may dissagree with me, thats fine, Does not make a difference to me. Everyones is intitled to their opinion.

    To all the guys that have Big 300 and 338 Mags and practice alot with them, there is no argument that they are affective but I dont think they are the right fit for this guy who is brand new and just wants to get involved in long range shooting.

    And BTW most of the GAP guys do Hunt, Myself and Moon actully hunt alot and I really enjoy taking game at Long Range.

    OK Back to Work.
     
  8. 762frmafr

    762frmafr Well-Known Member

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    I think George pretty much said what needed to be said, but I will post this here just like I did on AR-15.com just so that everyone over here knows what REALLY happened.

    First of all, I was there. The friend of the OP is a suppressor customer of mine and I am a long time customer of GA Precision. I was asked for a rifle recommendation and I recommended him to GAP. We set up a time to meet there, and we met. He brought along another friend of ours and avid long range shooter and hunter. As well, there was another friend there that has been hunting for decades. The friend of the OP told us what he wanted and what we thought of it. I recommended that he go with a 300 wm. The friend that he brought along recommended that he go with a 300wm. The other hunter that was there recommended that he go with a 300wm. Then just to make sure, when George walked in the room, we asked Georges opinion. George said that if it were him he would do a 7wsm. I then asked George if it were between 300rum and 300wm which would you choose? He gave many reasons why 300rum was not a good choice and said that he would choose 300wm. So after all of those recommendations, he went with ordering a 300wm. I called the purchaser of the rifle after they had both left the shop and he said that he was happy and could not wait to get his rifle. That is how it went down.
     
  9. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    Yo George,

    I really appreciate the straight skinny! Good to hear you reasoning. It is good.

    Thanks for taking the time to post.
     
  10. ICANHITHIMMAN

    ICANHITHIMMAN Well-Known Member

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    Gee I didnt even know George was a member here.
     
  11. COBrad

    COBrad Well-Known Member

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    I've had several .300's, from WSM to the old .300 Jarrett. I've also have several 7mm's and this caliber has become my favorite, for all the reasons already cited here. My question is why the WSM instead of the 7mm Rem. Mag.?
     
  12. matt_3479

    matt_3479 Well-Known Member

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    I am new at the game as well and also looking to get my first custom rifle for the exact reasons this guy is. Missed an opportunity at a bull moose of a life time and dont want that to happen again. I spoke with Kevin at MCR and asked him what he suggest for 800 yards and closer between the 300. win mag and 300 rum and he said the same thing George did and hopefully within the next little while i can send my rifle over to Kevin and get my 300. win mag started!!
     
  13. secondofangle

    secondofangle Active Member

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    Here is my line of reasoning.

    Long range shooting/hunting is a game of reducing variability and/or the effect of numerous variables including, but not limited to (followed in parentheses by possible solutions to the problem - BTW this is an incomplete list):

    Inherent weapon imprecision (buy a custom rig)
    Inherent ammunition imprecision (reload with quality components, sort brass, weigh bullets and charges, etc. - the sky is the limit here)
    Inherent shooter imprecision (trigger; weapon fit; practice)
    Ranging imprecision (laser range finder; flatter trajectory round)
    Wind (practice; higher BC heavy bullet going fast)
    Changing field or weapon conditions (tempature, etc)
    Terminal ballistics on the animal (bullet composition; energy)

    Ideally, we would like to reduce all these variables to a minimum, or reduce their effects on accuracy and terminal performance by employing as many solutions as possible, since all of the inherent limitations have a magnified effect the farther you're shooting. But tradeoffs are of course involved.

    This is the whole reason to spend $3500 on a custom rig, rather than $900 on a Factory Sendero, so we can improve fit and reduce group size to under 1/2 MOA. You're spending $$$ to reduce variability. A lot of $$$.

    So for me, I want to reduce the impact of other variables by using a round with ballistic characteristics that are also optimal - basically the flattest shooting round that will have sufficient terminal performance to kill whatever I'm shooting at at the ranges I'll be shooting at.

    Looking at reloader's nest and using the NF ballistics program, we see that it is reasonable to get a 208 AMAX to about 2900 FPS in a 300 WM or up to 3200 FPS in a RUM (both of these may be high estimates, you can play with the numbers all night if you wish). The difference in energy, wind correction, and drop at 1000 yards (at Sea Level and 40 degrees) are 340 foot pounds, .75 MOA and 5.25 MOA - not a lot but not peanuts either, and all in favor of 300 RUM. At 500 yards (perhaps a more realistic distance for most game shots) it's 550 foot pounds, .25 MOA wind and 2 MOA drop, all in favor of RUM.

    So, suppose he ranges an elk at 809 yards and rounds down to 800 yards to dial in the MOA correction for both guns. Suppose also that he either ranged the grass in front of the elk, or the elk has been imperceptibly retreating as he's watching it, and it's true range is 839 yards at the time he squeezes the trigger. Suppose further that he measures a 7 MPH wind that is really an 8 MPH wind and that he has corrected for it in both guns by rounding down from 7 to 5 MPH; that he shoots 1/2 MOA groups at that distance; and that he holds dead on in the center of the kill zone. Here is how much he's going to be off from his point of aim in both guns (I'm ignoring other variables such as temperature and the like):

    300 RUM: elevation 1.25 MOA (difference between ranged and actual distance), wind 1.25 MOA (1.25 MOA from rounding wind speed and inaccuracy in wind speed measurement, 0 MOA from ranging error). Thus, he is shooting a 4" group at 800 yards that is going to be off his point of aim by 10 inches low, and 10" either right or left. If the kill zone of an elk is 26" in diameter (assuming it's circular for simplicity; reference: Chuckhawks.com) his point of impact is going to be in the kill zone 75% of the time and the bullet impacts with 1900 foot pounds of energy, or the same energy that a 308 with a 168 grain bullet at 2600 fps at the muzzle has at 175 yards.

    300 WM: the corresponding values are 1.5 MOA elevation (difference between ranged and actual distance), and 1.5 MOA wind (1.25 MOA from rounding wind speed and innacurate measurement, and 0.25 MOA from ranging error). With these values, he's now 12" low and 12" off with wind, and in that kill zone of radius 13" only about 25% of his shots are in there given a 4 inch group. The bullet impacts with 1400 foot pounds of energy, about the same as a 243 shooting a 105 grain at 3100 fps at the muzzle and impacting at 300 yards!

    These differences will be less at closer ranges (because the trajectories overlap there) but they will be magnified at longer ranges (where the trajectories diverge). Obviously if this were a mule deer, it would have been a miss. Or if the ranging error didn't exist, they would have [almost] all been kill zone hits. But that's what we're fighting - VARIABLES - and it's generally best to reduce them (and their impact [pun intended]) as much as possible.

    So, what is the price that is to be paid for this in the 300 RUM compared with the 300 WM, and what weight should be given to these tradeoffs? I will comment on the tradeoffs mentioned by other posters on this and another board.

    1.) Recoil - I dismiss this based on the same kind of argument used above. While distance magnifies differences, muzzle brakes and suppressors divide differences. Using the recoil calculator on handloads.com, the recoil impulse of the RUM in lbs*sec is 4.57 and that of the WM is 4.01. Reduced by 50% with a brake the values are 2.28 and 2.0, for a 14% bigger recoil impulse from the RUM. Suffice it to say if you are willing to shoot a WM without a brake, the RUM with a brake is going to be a walk in the park. The recoil impulse of an 8 pound M1A shooting a 168 grain at 2600 is 2.67, so the RUM is going to kick less than that (all else equal).

    2.) Cost of ammo if you reload - RUM brass is a bit more expensive and you're going to have about 10-15% reduction in powder charge with WM. I'm not going to do a formal analysis here, but I think we can dismiss this.

    3.) Barrel burn out - well, if anybody had asked my buddy how many rounds he throws down range in a given year, they would have learned that it's probably less than 200 in all his high powered rifles combined, and I know because I do his reloading for him! So at the rate he's going, a RUM barrel is going to last him 5-10 years, and when the throat wears out, he can have it cut and rechambered (in 300WM if he thinks it wore out too fast!). He's spending $3500 for a rifle, he can spend $500 on maintenance every 5 years. I go through a $500 pair of motorcycle tires once a season, you gotta pay to play.

    4.) Cost and availability of factory ammo: Now you might have something here. I'm betting that the Nosler factory 200 grain loaded Accubond will be the best factory bet for the 300 RUM, but it's $89 a box at midway right now. The same stuff is $69 a box for WM. So if you shoot 100 rounds a year, you save $100 on factory ammo between the two calibers. You have way more choices with the WM however, and the Federal Gold Medal with a 190 SMK might be a good long range round with this gun, if you weren't going to reload.

    I don't think I'm missing any salient arguments about trade-offs between the two calibers. The RUM has slightly better ballistics and terminal performance (energy). But it costs a bit more to shoot and recoils a bit more even with a brake. If cost is such a deal breaker, then I find it difficult to justify the price of the custom rig over a factory Sendero. If recoil is a dealbreaker, either mount a brake or get a 243 and sneak up on them.

    But if you want to reduce variability as much as you can, get the 300 RUM.

    That's all I got.
     
  14. Tyler Kemp

    Tyler Kemp SPONSOR

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    Been notified this is on several sites.

    I am also a buddy of the customer, and I suggested a 300 WM as well.

    In talking absolute worst case scenarios, any gun can miss due to shooter error.

    Comparing energy of x bullet to x caliber at x range at x velocity really doesn't tell much. A 208 grain Amax is a fragile bullet, and isn't going to have any problems expanding at a few hundred less fps. At 800 yards I see around .1-.2 mil difference in wind, relatively minor for an elk sized target, and probably within shooter error.

    Before shooting at 800 yards (or several hundred yards closer) on an animal, I'd sure hope the customer spends more than a couple rounds sighting in the gun and shooting a bit. (which is planned)

    As far as recoil is concerned, I've shot a 30-378 and 300 WM of similar weights, similar setups, and I found the 30-378 much more abusive, while maybe the numbers wouldn't say it wasn't "that much worse". In a 9 lb gun, I wouldn't want to practice with a 300 RUM as my primary gun. Just my opinion.

    Do I advocate smaller rounds for big game? No, I shoot a 338 Lapua Improved for long range game. However I would NOT feel undergunned at all shooting an elk at 1000 yards in good conditions with a 208 grain Amax at 2900 fps.