GAP talked my buddy out of a 300 RUM

[secondofangle]

Tyler, I just hope one of you guys also shoots 300 WM so you can take over as MS' reloading slave.

I don't have 300 WM dies and besides I could use a break

Consider the baton passed!

 

[65nut]

wow. soa has a little butt hurt issue here. so, you would tell someone who shoots less than two hundred rounds of year with their long range hunting rig to go out and try to take elk at 1,000 yards????? thats pretty ignorant and stupid. its people like like that, that give actual long range hunters a bad name. it has been fun to see you throw temper tantrums across the internet on various forums. if you knew anything about George, like others have stated, you would know he does hunt quite a bit. he builds great rifles. ever hear of the non-typical line of rifles he makes??? i dont know, this is just a shot in the dark here, but it doesnt look like its been breaded and deep fried in "tacticool - aid". before you go on bashing a great rifle builder next time, you may want to do a little homework on your part so you do not continue to sound like a 14 year old arm chair shooter.

 

[Buffalobob]

Not a fan of GAP rifles but his reasoning is very sound. If a person is going to have only one rifle and it has to be the practice rifle and the hunting rifle then barrel life becomes a driving issue. Personally I can afford to have several rifles and one is a dedicated practice rifle in 308.

Practice and comfort shooting at long range should be done well before hunting season and if you have only one rifle then that is the barrel that gets a couple of hundred rounds down it every year not just the first year. You cannot be using an overbore magnum for that very meany years without rebarreling.

Here is an old thread of mine which illustrates how much I believe in practice and how easy it is to put practice to work in a hunting situation.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f85/practice-teamwork-34515/

The two of them went on to make kills of 910 yards and 707 yards that hunting season. But all of that success came from days and days on the rifle range and hundreds rounds fired.

 

[Fiftydriver]

The 300 RUM is an extremely good chambering for a long range hunting rifle. I guess it depends on what "Long Range" means to the customer or builder. For 600-700 yards or less, they are correct, not much need for such a chambering unless your shooting in areas where wind is an ever constant concern.

For ranges past this, the big 300 RUM really comes into its own compared to the smaller chamberings. The 7mm WSM is a great chambering. I build many of them every year and they are great, easy shooting rifles and perform far better then most would ever expect. Still, when your in unknown conditions, I always feel better with a larger chambering because it allows a slightly larger margin of error in reading conditions simply because external conditions effect these big chamberings less then the small ones.

NOw, you could pick several combinations that would make the 7mm WSM look just as impressive as the RUM at long range but when you compare the best of the best of each, the 300 RUM certainly has a clear advantage at long range especially on big game such as elk.

As far as recoil, not sure where they are coming from there. A 300 RUM with a quality muzzle brake simply has no recoil, literally no recoil so I do not understand that comment.

Now, the larger the chambering, the more stress the rifle has to endure and as such, its easier to build a very precision rifle in a smaller chambering then a large one. GAP makes a fine rifle so I do not see that being a problem so I have no idea why they recommended this.

Again, it all comes down to what your defination of "long range" is and what game you will be hunting and where you will be hunting so maybe that came into the recommendation.

I know when I recommend a chambering to a customer, its a very specific recommendation for each customer. Often times two similiar requests will have a different chambering recommendation. With so many good choices we can choose from a wide selection to meet goals as perfectly as possible.

 

[cummins cowboy]

I think there is more to be said about being able to practice and see how your combo really does in actual conditions, this may mean give up a little shear performance. I personally have had more trouble getting magnum cases to shoot well. I think GAP gave the right advice. provided they can get the wsm to feed really good and there are not issues with that, I would assume they would not offer it if that couldn't.

I think the better BC of the 7mm bullets is going to be a more practical setup than the RUM. heck graybull seems to do ALOT with 6.5's they even have a 243 shooting 105's on film dumping elk. besides muzzle brakes SUCK you guys autta know that. an 8# bare 7wsm needs no brake.

 

[Fiftydriver]

"Muzzle brakes SUCK"

Why exactly is that?????

A quality muzzle brake will do as much if not more to improve most long range shooters and hunters then any other single aspect of a rifle given its a quality rifle.

- No recoil distraction

- No loss of field of view

- Shooter being able to spot impact is a HUGE confidence booster

You take two rifles of the same set up, barring a 20 lb class rifle, lets say a 10 lb rifle made for all around long range hunting, one with a muzzle brake, one without and 90% of the time any given shooter will shoot the braked rifle more consistantly then the unbraked rifle, yes, even with a 7mm WSM.

Now many say they are to loud for hunting...... BUNK. This is LONG RANGE HUNTING.com, you have PLENTY of time to put on some quality hearing protection and with the huge selection of electronic hearing protection on the market, this is an excuss from decades past.

I have NEVER had any problem getting a 300 RUM to shoot right there with any 7mm WSM. Perhaps you would see the benefit of trying a quality muzzle brake and you would likely see that you can shoot the big magnums just as well as the smaller chamberings. That is nearly always the case in my experience with new shooters trying large magnums.

Hell, I make alot of 300 RUMs for ladies that have no problem at all putting first shot impact within 1/4 moa of point of aim out to 1/2 mile once they get an accurate drop chart figured up for their rifles. In my opinion, use as much power as you can accurately shoot at long range. When everything goes right, the smaller chamberings can do amazing work, but when things do not go quite right, thats when the big guns can get you out of trouble more often then the smaller guns..

Case in point, this years pronghorn season. I set up on a good buck at 823 yards. Wind at my location was nearly calm but I knew that where the herd of pronghorns were at, there was at least a 6-8 mph crosswind. I dialed for that estimate and took the shot on a buck standing broadside.

The shot landed just under the spine and just ahead of the rear ham, a poor shot by every discription. HOWEVER, the buck fell to the shot and was dead by the time I had gotten to him without hitting a single bone, WHY???

Well, I was using my 7mm Allen Magnum loaded with the 160 gr Accubond at nearly 3500 fps. When I walked up to the buck I found that at around 200 yards down range, what I thought was a 6-8 mph wind was actually a 15-17 mph wind whipping over the ridgeline...... Had I been shooting a lesser 7mm such as the WSM a couple things would have happened.

1. The error in windage hold would have likely put the shot right through the ham. Had the pelvis been shattered the buck would have dropped to the shot as well but would not have died. IF only one leg had been broken, I would have easily lost that buck.

2. Even with the same shot placement, it is likely that the WSM would not have not produced the energy dump required to kill the buck quickly. The 7mm AM broke the spine without even hitting it. It also hit with enough force that it split the paunch, liver and diaphram without toughing any of them. It also severel bruised the back of both lungs. Something the much smaller 7mm WSM would have never done. In fact, with that shot placement, It would be likely that I would have never recovered that buck because of very minimal damage done on that impact location.

I do not think about the results of using a specific chambering when everything goes RIGHT. I think about what happens when a shot lands on the fringes of the vital zone. This is where the big magnums SHINE and the smaller chamberings really drop off in effective game harvesting. And honestly, many more shots impact on the fringes then dead center on the vitals.

Again, it also comes back to what you consider long range hunting distances. A short 4-5 years ago, when you talked about long range hunting on this site, it generally ment 1/2 mile range or more. Not 400-500 yard shots are referred to as long range shots. In some situations certainly but in good conditions, this range is really moderate range hunting.

For true long range hunting, especially on heavier game, there is no comparision between a 7mm WSM and a 300 RUM, especially when both are loaded with bullets that will perform extremely well terminally. A 300 RUM loaded with a 200 gr Accubond at 3200-3250 fps is flat out amazing terminally at any range out to 1000 yards.

Yes you could come up with numerous examples of better ballistics in the 7mm that would at least match this combo but if you used a bullet with the same terminal performance as the Accubond, the 7mm will fall well short when fired from a small case like the WSM. This is not opinion, its a proven fact. Again, put the bullet in the right place and results are amazing, even on big game like elk at very long ranges, put the same bullet on the fringes of a heavy big game animal and you will have a much harder time recovering your animal compared to the same shot with a larger caliber chambering.

Shot placement is key. To make good shot placement, you have to know the external conditions. IF you can not nail the conditions on the nose, the most potent ballistically performing chambering will get cover more of that margin of error then a lesser chambering. Terminally, the heavier, larger diameter, faster bullet will nearly always produce better results when shots are not exactly perfect.

Now if you blow a leg off or punch a shot right through the guts, what your shooting makes little difference but even in those cases, I would rather have more gun then needed then shoot a smaller chambering anyday.

Just my opinion.

 

[McMillan]

We hosted a writers Nilgai hunt to introduce our new McMillan Hunting knife made for us by DiamondBlade. One of the writers had just had surgery on his right wrist so he was concerned about recoil. Since we were hunting Nilgai and they really tough, all we brought we 30 cal and up. So he grabbed a 300 WSM (no brake) while we were on the range deciding who was going to shoot what. After he pulled the trigger, I saw him wince a little and asked him to do me a favor. I handed him an Outdoorsman in 300 RUM and asked him to try it. He reluctantly agreed and fire a round down range. After the first shot he smiled and insisted on shooting another. He ended up hunting with the rifle and shooting his Nilgai with it. The Outdoorsman is 7lb 12 oz, has a fluted #5 barrel and a Vais muzzle break. Honestly it compares to the recoil of a .308 or less. I don't have a clue why anyone would talk someone out of a 300 RUM provided it has a well designed stock and a muzzle break.

 

[Pdvdh]

The final weight of the rifle all decked out is an important consideration for some. In my case, 99% of my hunts are backpacking hunts. Involving packing in with enough gear and food to spend one night, or possibly two. The terrain is mountainous. Commonly hiking up a river cut 4 -6 miles and looking for game on the way in, while overnighting, and again on the walk out. If I shoot an animal, now I have to pack all my gear, plus the animal back out. I personally refuse to carry a rifle exceeding 10 to 10.5 lbs under these hunting conditions. I prefer the rifle not exceed 9 1/2 lbs.

So my rifles have lighter profile barrels. #3, #4, or #5 profile. With those lighter profile barrels, I selected the 300 WM for my backpacking rifle rather than a RUM sized cartridge. I tend to think the more horsepower being unleashed, the more rigid the shooting platform necessary to maintain equivalent accuracy. The 300 WM seemed the better alternative.

So as has been mentioned, the better cartridge can depend on user specific goals, methods, styles, and considerations. Any complete and thoughtful debate as to which cartridge is 'the best cartridge' is faulty, to the point of invalid, without specifying the end use parameters and the end user's application of the cartridge. I'd compare it to a which bridge is the best bridge debate - without identifying the loads the bridge is required to support.

I appreciate and respect these facts of life. A larger and heavier high BC bullet driven to higher velocity will increase the ease of connecting on long range targets, provided the rifle is inherently as accurate as a lesser horse-powered cartridge. So if I had a personal gun bearer packing my rifle, I'd always opt for a 16 lb 338 Allen magnum for purposes of harvesting a distant animal at 1000 yds, rather than my a 9 3/4 lb 300 WM for that same distant animal. But when the reality is such that I'm my own gun bearer, and I have to pack my rifle 5 miles in and back out of the wilds, I will always end up with my 9 3/4 lb 300 WM, and I am content with that compromise in down range performance, compared to a 300 RUM or 338 AM.

 

[cummins cowboy]

of course you guys only look at the upsides of a muzzlebrake, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE DOWNSIDES??? the vias brake mentioned and most muzzlebrakes for that matter have holes all the way around them in a round fashion. what does this mean?? its going to kick up a ton of crap off the ground once you touch off the trigger for prone shot, is it not??? umm yeah it will. and for the purpose of long range hunting which we are all discussing its fair to say that if taking such a shot it should be from a prone position.

what about the freaking noise??? touch off just one braked 300 rum and for one everyone at the shooting range is going to be like ***, what about in the field I and not wearing ear muffs. most people don't yeah is it a good idea not to? well no, but I think its fair to say most guys shooting more standard chamberings have decided its ok to go unmuffed for one shot. but throw in a 300 rum and a brake, its going to be too much.

look at some of the long range videos out there, most of the guys doing it are not using the RUM or other high intensity magnums of 30 cal or greater. heck alot of guys are doing alot with 6.5's. I contend if you need a brake you are shooting way too much gun, that is my opinion your entitles to yours, but from a practical standpoint your burning a ton less powder, your using bullets of equal or greater BC pushed to equal or greater speeds. all your giving up is energy by avoiding the big 30's, but gaining a rifle that has way less blast, no annoying muzzlebrake. I see more upsides and totally agree with the guy from GAP. another advantage of the WSM is its in a short action as well.

I also contend that the variables really start to stack against you once the distance gets beyond about 700 yards. wind calls need to be good, the shooter needs to know what they are doing, the equipment needs to be tested and proven at that distance. still the conditions may say its a bad idea to take a shot even at that distance. shooting a 300 rum is not going to make it easier to hit at those distances vs a 7 wsm that is being discussed.

 

[bigngreen]

Looks like the OP may get the ****ing contest he wanted, there is now three top end smiths with different opinions posting and only one that had contact with the actual customer. This should be epic!!!!!

 

[Pdvdh]

The Outdoorsman is 7lb 12 oz, has a fluted #5 barrel and a Vais muzzle break. Honestly it compares to the recoil of a .308 or less. I don't have a clue why anyone would talk someone out of a 300 RUM provided it has a well designed stock and a muzzle break.

Again, I contend the user's application of the rifle is being overlooked. Is a 7 1/2 lb rifle as accurate in the hands of the average hunter for purposes of connecting on game at 1000 yds as a 10 lb rifle? First is the lighter contoured and lighter weight rifle going to be as accurate. Secondly, in the hands of the average hunter, which rifle will be piloted to a higher level of accuracy at 1000 yds.

Not picking fights. Just providing differing use scenarios and how those should be considered prior to reaching final determinations as to 'the best cartridge'.

 

[pyroducksx3]

I just went through this exact decision, except the smith recommended the 7 rem mag. I ended up going with rem mag in the end for a lot of the reasons people have been pro 300wm/or 7 wsm. That thread was 300 rum with 210/230 bergers or 7mm 180 bergers at 3000 fps

 

[TMR]

Easy decision, get one of each!


I agree with Kirby that there is no replacement for horsepower. I also agree with George in that there is no replacement for practice. All of my personal rifles are setup exactly the same way so the feel is the same no matter what rifle I get behind from my match rifles to hunting rifles. The recoil might change, but practice forces you to learn conditions. Obviously a 308 is going to be drastically different than a 300RUM in terms of ballistics, but the 308 forces you to know exactly what the wind is doing at all ranges. Thankfully my range of rifles is all pretty close on ballistics....the spread is about 1moa of windage at 1k among them. Brakes just make thing more pleasant to shoot. I (and alot of others including George and Kirby) run them on just about everything we have from 243's on up. Its not so much about recoil, its about recovering and staying on your target. Yup, there is alot of blast.....Yup a guy needs to wear hearing protection(which you should be anyway). The benefits do outweigh the downsides of brakes IMHO. The difference between a 7WSM with 180's and a 300RUM with 210's isn't that much at 1k, but it is a difference, with the performance going to the RUM. Recoil in a braked RUM or WSM is next to nothing and just not a concern. Both can be made to be extremely accurate. The RUM does suffer from poor barrel life, but that is the price of performance. That is why I build so many duplicate setups in smaller calibers for guys so they can shoot all year, then switch over to the big gun and never miss a beat.

There really isn't a wrong choice here. Just have to understand the differences and pick whats best for you. Its hard to have a "one gun does it all" rifle with a compromise somewhere.

 

[Coyboy]

Alot of good points brought up in this thread, and some expressing opinion that seems to carry a bit of bias. Every rifle is individual to the owners needs and expectations.

Newbies are easy to spot weather via; face to face, e-mail, or phone.

When I make a contact, and cartrige selection comes up I always ask the folowing questions;

Realisticly what yardages to you plan on harvesting game?
What species of game will be the largest you hunt?
Do you oppose a muzzle brake or are you good with one?(suprising to some but many customers actually want them)
What would be your ideal rifle weight?
Are you an experienced handloader? or do you plan on using factory ammo?

With out these answers, it is hard to fit a gun to a customer, final weight may be dependent on the component selection. Some new guys think a 9lb 300/338 super banger is easy to build with a 30" barrel and an A-5 stock, and NF scope.
Well they need a reality check, or a mid range 7mm.



As far as what went on with the OP friend;
If the answer to the last question is "factory" The 300 win mag is a perfect choice, in a LR elk gun, many great accurate factory load offering.
If he wanted a 9.5lb rifle, again a 300wm with a 26" barrel, near perfect.
If he wanted a 8.5lb gun I would have pushed him hard toward a short mag.

If he asked for a 12-15lb rifle with a brake, sure step up to a RUM based cartrige.

BUT NONE OF US EXCEPT George know exactly what the parameters of the build are, because he holds the work order.

Do I have favorite cartiges sure, many, I use one over the other based on; range, gun weight, game, terain and confidence. A newbie needs to start somewhere to gain experience and learn what he likes, under what conditions. At least the OPs friend is off to a good start.


The only point I disagree with is that at 1997 yards that elk would have dropped on his dick!