A real target for beginning LR shooters

[DJ Fergus]

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First off, I am not a self-proclaimed great shooter but what I am is a realist. This is also not for the experienced LR shooter as you will already know all of this. There are a lot of people, I imagine, who are lurking on this website that never post, who are just getting started into LR shooting and don't understand what it really takes to get it done on an animal at Longrange. They log on here and see posts where people have posted targets at 800-1000 yards and there groups are 4-5" which is all good but their group is about 8" off point of aim on their target. I know because I was guilty of it when I first joined this site. Look at my 4" group at 950 yards that would have gut shot a deer because it's so far off my point of aim is what it's really saying.

So with shooters on here who are just getting into longer range shooting, I set up my target at 800 yards...it is a 24"x24" target. I had a slight carbon ring in this rifle so I cleaned the crap out of it the night before. Even scrubbed the throat with JB. I got my kestrel 5700 elite w/applied ballistics out and bluetoothed it to my rangefinder and ranged the target and it sent the distance to my kestrel and it gave me the elevation and windage from the information that I stored in it for my rifle and load. The wind was blowing from 9 o'clock at 4mph which called for 1.5 MOA left. Elevation at 800 yards for this rifle is 15.5 MOA. I dialed and shot and the cold clean barrel shot is the one to the right of the 10" orange circle. That could have been me or it could have been the clean cold bore shot everyone dreads but the shot wasn't that far off.

I then shot 10 shots letting the barrel cool after each shot. I also re-verified the wind on every shot with my kestrel. On the 6th shot, I noticed that the wind had changed from 4mph from 9 o'clock to 4mph from 11 o'clock. So to show how far off even a small change in wind direction can change your shot placement, I left my windage turret set for 4mph from 9 o'clock and shot. That is the shot to the left of the orange circle. Windage correction for 4mph from the 9 o'clock calls for 1.5 MOA left to compensate. Corrections for a 4mph wind from 11 o'clock calls for 1 MOA left. Just that small of a change in direction results in being 4" off of your point of aim plus what ever the shooter error incurs.

As you can see from that shot left, if a deer was facing right, it would be gut shot andI you may be chasing that deer a ways.

Most people on here already know all of this but a lot of beginning shooters may get bold by their groups being small but not on their point of aim like others have posted pics of and think they can be successful at longrange shots on animals. This will lead to utter failure. I shoot a lot for practice at these ranges and am meticulous at reloading and as you can see, my 9 shot group with each wind correction is not SUPER tight but it is within the kill zone and that's what counts. My load is accurate and consistent but sometimes I am not. Just keep in mind that groups are important but hitting at your point of aim repeatedly is equally or more important and it takes a lot of work. I hope this doesn't come off wrong, I'm not a great shot and not trying to brag as you can see I pulled one shot high and the group is not outstanding. I just think to many people get carried away about their small groups without worrying so much about where the shots are.

You are right on partner, Many times the groups folks shoot at long distances are not meaningful or realistic for successful shots on game. A fellow who's done a lot of shooting in the wind can make more useful shots on game than someone who has a rifle that may be a bit more accurate but has no other experience than shooting under ideal conditions. Looks like you've got a good handle on real world shots at long distance. Two thumbs up!

 

[LVJ76]

This is one good and interesting thread, thanks for starting it, and it has a lot of valuable info. I just learned some cool tips here, thanks all.

I learned from my dad when hunting scopes did not have dial turrets, good ol kentucky windage. If my dad said aim on hair one foot behind the shoulder thats what I did, and he was dead on.

Now a days do I use a range finder and ballistic app? Yes, sometimes, when I have time, sometimes you don't, it's just aim and shoot. This is when knowing your rifle, scope and your bullet comes on to play. You need to know your bullet drop at distances and always have a read on the wind and distances around you. Now will this work for 1,000 yds? The answer is NO. This has worked for me up to 500m, past that the wind can get tricky and the gadgets come in handy/necessary.

You can learn to measure distance by practice and by playing with a range finder. The wind by shooting at targets out there and looking at vegetation as mentioned above, I also use a mist sprayer with water, it really comes in handy.

Another important and if not the most important one, is to know the wind direction so your pray can't smell you, you never want the wind in your back as I am sure you already know

Again thanks all for the good info.

 

[LiveToHunt7]

To add to the hunting aspect, know what time of day it is. In the mountains, thermals are everything, especially when you spot and need to cover some ground. Nothing like getting blown out because the wind switched on you.

 

[NW Hunter]

I liked seeing this post migrate into a discussion of wind. Definitely the most important aspect in long range shooting.

For the beginner, I think the most important step is getting a gun/ammo that shoots sub moa with a reasonably high bc and velocity. Say .600/3000 or close to it.

Then figure out how to shoot inside that 1moa with your different rests and shooting positions. Lean your gear. This is precision.

Next step is to validate your ballistics. A Chrono is nice but not required. When you have a validated profile you should now be able to calculate a correct solution for any set of conditions. This is accuracy. There are tons of videos and learning to help get you here.

That last hurdle is feeding the calculator with good inputs. Mostly straight forward, but wind will own you no matter your experience level. Shoot as much as you can in the wind, it helps!

A post is hard to teach in, but start by applying our bracket method. Learn to estimate wind in 5mph brackets. 0, 5, 10, 15. Use wind meter, vegetation, mirage. In your calculator set up your 5 mph input. In the field use that solution or double it to get your 10 mph solution. With the suggested bc/MV combo I suggested, this will get you elk capable to 1000 yards!

Shoot for ALL shots inside a 1 moa tall by 2 moa wide boundary. Push the limits, and you'll learn how far you will feel comfortable hunting. Never shoot based on dope! Always go through the complete solution method.

Skip, during this Covid 19 situation, I have discovered your Gunwerks Utube videos.
My wife complains that I am obsessed with studying and rewinding the videos.
Yep...I am not afraid to admit she's right on!
Gunwerks videos ( heck, all shooting and reloading videos ) are opening my eyes to all the little things I sometimes don't think about.
I just finished a portable shooting bench using your dimensions.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

[CaptnC]

Definitely a great thread!

The wind is the by far the wildcard in shooting long range. Here in Texas its pretty tough to have the "right" wind for taking a long range shot on game. Rare is the day when the wind is not blowing. And it seems to be gusting at that all the time.

I have my dope programs set up for a 10mph wind just so I can how much drift can be expected. At 600 yards it's tough to stay on a 6" plate most days at the range. If you get lucky and have a north wind (dead head on) or a due south wind (at your 6) it sure is easy to bang away on it. We were shooting a few weeks ago and the wind was all over the map and vary in speed. I was missing a plate (600yds) about the size of tennis ball nearly every shot with the same hold...just right, then just left and next shot a lot one way or the other!

I set up a stand at our deer lease where I can shoot to 585 yards. The shot angle from the blind is for a SW wind which we have the bulk of the time. So if I get fortunate enough to get the wind and deer to cooperate I plan to give it go.

I passed on a shot during my Devils River Aoudad hunt that was exactly 600 yards, a range I shoot at a lot, but I was shooting west to east with a due south wind that was gusting over 20mph. I would also be shooting across two ridges that were between me and the big ram....add to that he was facing south so there was a lot of non fatal flesh in the direction the wind would have pushed the bullet.

 

[Coldfinger]

This is a great thread and I do not want to send it off the rails,,,,, but it's for people new to this game so I feel obligated. I agree with everything above except for the 22-250 and the 50 gr. Varmint bullet. I'm not a fan of 22 cal.s for deer to start, but I really do not want any newby to think a bullet designed to explode in varmints should be used in deer.

Your correct not everyone should use a varmint cartridge on deer!!! But I was born with a 22-250 practically, not everyone should be using a 308 or 270 either. I've killed my fair share with a 22 hornet but didn't recommend either cartridge. I have a cartridge in just about every diameter bullet from 23hornet to .500 except 6.5. I personally favor the 22-250. Both my boys ages 6&3 own 22-250's and will learn it's capabilities as I did. When they're old enough to choose they're hunting round I will help them wisely choose one. This one will prolly stir up some argument but in my eyes all these new perfect founds generally came from the ole .250-3000 just AI'd.

 

[Korhil78]

Folks, just keep in mind, your soap box posts will be deleted. This is supposed to be an informative thread about helping people choose and find their range to take game through practice. Doesn't matter if it's 200 yards or further. One negative post and it all spirals out of control.

 

[Korhil78]

Practice practice and more practice is how we learn our limits. By doing so, you will learn how the wind, terrain etc will limit your range.

 

[Dave in WI]

To learn the basic difference in the "feel" of a 5 vs 10 vs 15mph wind, would one of the cheap wind meters that you plug into your phone work for learning. I mean standing out in the wind and comparing what 5mph feels like on my face vs what a 10mph wind feels like?

 

[Korhil78]

Yes it would work. But the best thing to do is get out there and shoot in it to see how it affects your shooting abilities and how it will limit your shooting distances on game. Buy one of those and go shoot with it so you can get the feeling of it while you are shooting.

 

[catamountsierra]

To learn the basic difference in the "feel" of a 5 vs 10 vs 15mph wind, would one of the cheap wind meters that you plug into your phone work for learning. I mean standing out in the wind and comparing what 5mph feels like on my face vs what a 10mph wind feels like?

That is basically my game, even if just out hiking. I carry my rangefinder and Kestrel. Every so often I spot something distinctive, at which point I try to make my best guess as to distance and wind conditions (530m, 5-7mph @ 2o'clock). Then I break out the answer machines and see how I did. The more often you do this, the better you get at it.

 

[basinman]

New shooter here too. Would you say it's necessary to have the Kestrel weather meter? Could it be done without? Maybe an experienced shooter could chime in.

Thank you.

I will be getting a Kestrel but for a few years now I have been using an inexpensive wind meter and the Strelok program and it works surprisingly well. But I believe the Kestrel will be faster, which is a plus especially when hunting.

 

[JCow14]

Good Post! i would say your cold bore shot is the most important and practicing it as well, that is truly the same as shooting at an animal. that first shot is the most important- if you can challenge yourself to that first shot in an array of different conditions of temperature/wind/direction/ elevation / sun/clouds at different yardages, you will build confidence in yourself and the gun your shooting. Confidence is everything in this game!

 

[HARPERC]

A rule I give to young guys (but rarely follow myself) Don't trade opportunity for products. Some of us old guys have spent a lifetime getting toys little by little. To expect to jump in, and acquire top end rifle, scope, spotter, binos, range finder, Kestrel isn't necessary to get started.

One thing I've done is after sighting in, use animal targets. Walk up to the target, and think what the outcome will be of each shot taken.

No point in buying a 100 yard rifle/system until you've mastered the previous 900.

I passed on a shot at a mountain goat at 308 yards, prone good, rest, but the wind was up in the "what the hell are you doing on this mountain" level.