A real LRH topic - I hope....

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by royinidaho, Mar 1, 2008.

  1. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    I'm referring to the first shot on this video.

    http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/good-long-range-video-28439/#post193392

    Here's a question for ya: Is that elk looking AT them or just IN their direction before he turns to walk off?. Also, notice the time delay between the "bark" and the elk hearing it.

    Was there enough movement setting up for the shot both rifle and video camera, with those nifty reflective orange caps for the bull to really take notice of them? If he was looking @ them, were they too far away to be of concern to the bull? Did the bull even see them?

    Would you have taken that shot from a sitting position?

    Your thoughts please

    Me thinks that in Idaho that 'bark' would have put the bull into high gear instead of stopping him. I'd do a whistle instead.
     
  2. Slopeshunter

    Slopeshunter Well-Known Member

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    Hey Roy, just speaking for me I don't think I'd have taken the shot from a sitting position. Just doesn't feel solid enough.
     

  3. Varmint Hunter

    Varmint Hunter Well-Known Member

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    It's hard to tell whether or not Len needed to shoot from that position to clear some vegetation. Personally, I'm always laying in the dirt when taking the really long shots.

    As far as the elk looking at them - he was probably just looking in the direction of their yelp; but who knows?
     
  4. Shawn Carlock

    Shawn Carlock Sponsor

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    The big question was the amount of luck involved. Watch the video closely especially if you have the video and can put it on a big screen. You will notice that the shot lands midship (behind the diaphram) fortunately they had the elevation nutted and were shooting high shoulder and spined it. 2 or 3 inches lower and it would clearly be a gut shot. Knowing they are high shoulder shooters (as am I) they were around 16-20" off the mark in windage. One has to wonder if the high shooting position was the cause or a wind estimation error. I too like to be in the dirt when ever possible, but sometimes it just isn't possible. I like the the Beyond Belief video, great footage, I am not wild about their equipment or techniques but everyone likes what they like.
     
  5. Coues Sniper

    Coues Sniper Well-Known Member

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    IMO, if they were quiet enough, didn't move too fast, and stayed out of the sun the bull probably would never have noticed. Some talking wouldn't have spooked him at that distance. Blaze orange makes little difference. The bull was never looking at them, just for the source of the noise. If i was confident in my rest, and my abilities, then yes I would have taken that shot. Turned out well for that guy. Longest shot i have taken sitting was 560, and he dropped like a rock. As far as the "bark", i have found it's not really the type of noice, but the volume or tone (urgency). I have seen plenty of deer and elk bolt at a whistle (or "bark" or grunt for that matter) if it's done too loudly or if the whistle seemed to excited. I won't make any noise unless it's an absolute last resort for what it's worth. That bull was not nervous at all and in all likelyhood would have presented a good shot without them stopping him, but things change when a camera is rolling.
     
  6. longrangefreek

    longrangefreek Well-Known Member

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    Im very familiar with this video. I actually have owned it for quite some time. I love it. The guys at best of the west are the ones who got me excited about longrange hunting. There tactics are good. I don't use all their tactics the main one being the custom turrent. In my hunting the elevations and temps change to much and according to my charts some are extreme enough to change point of impact greatly. I figured if i have to use the shooting cards to convert, I might as well just use the factory turrent and use my shot cards for exact yardages and not for compensation of my custom turrent. has worked well for me so far.
    I also don't miss a week of the best of the west shows on VS. channel every week. I love watching their show.
     
  7. grit

    grit Well-Known Member

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    You're just gonna have to go buy it now. And put er up on the big screen in slow mo. Called "Beyond Belief" if ya don't know. I'm with Shawn on this one. Great video. Some stuff not my style. The tripod they're usin' is good for 700ish. Now, I'll have to take another look to see what the wind's doing.

    Pretty acute of Shawn to spot how badly they missed.
     
  8. buffalorancher

    buffalorancher Writers Guild

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    I own the video and enjoyed watching it. It was hard watching it in this post though because I couldn't stop watching the idiot getting hit with the bat.
     
  9. yama49

    yama49 Well-Known Member

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    i own the vid, now i'm going to watch it again. on the most part a good vid looks like the high shoulder shot , sure drops them.
     
  10. Boman

    Boman Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't surprise me that Shawn noticed that hit landed off the mark. I sent that video to Kirby for him to see and he pointed out a bunch of stuff that I missed. Kirby and Shawn are real pros and prove it time and time again. Great topic though.
     
  11. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    Me thinks that those like Shawn and Kirby otta go on the road with their act.

    Wouldn't it be sweet to see Kirby doing the Wednesday night thing at Sportman's or Cabelas? I chuckle at the thought.

    There have been some very informative posts re: this topic. I've learned a bunch.
     
  12. John Burns

    John Burns Well-Known Member

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    Shawn Carlock,

    I am curious how you determined the hit was behind the diaphragm? As I skinned out that bull I found the hit directly in the top of the shoulder. hmmm

    When I played the video on my big screen TV I am at a loss as to where your determination came from?

    Please explain

    Thanks

    John Burns
     
  13. Shawn Carlock

    Shawn Carlock Sponsor

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    John,

    I will say that you were there and I was not. So if you say it was a high shoulder hit I am not going to say it was not. I first noticed that the bulls butt hit the ground before the shoulders even moved. I have seen this to be consistant with spine hits closer to the pelvis than the shoulder. It is not a fool proof indication just something I look at. The other issue in my opinion of the hit being too far back is the blood streaming from a spot about 10-12" forward of the pelvis and a good distance back from the shoulder. I suspose this could be an exit wound on the same side as the impact? I have seen strange bullet routes in bodies both animal and human. The two effects in concert are what formed my opinion as they go hand in hand, from my experience. If it was in fact a high shoulder hit and the bullet turned 90 degrees after impacting something hard traveled down the spine turned again and exited the left hand side (impact side) of the body, then I stand corrected. I use this shot as an example why the high shoulder shot is a good shot to take. Since most shot errors are in windage it allows for some mechanical error in windage and still be a good shot. However as the shot moves back it is a small window in elevation to become a poor shot. As I said in the begining of this post, the shot has all the appearances fo being too far back despite hitting the spine and dropping the bull. I was not there and you were so if you say it was a high shoulder hit I will accept that, even though there is nothing I see on the video to indicate or support that it was a high shoulder hit.
     
  14. John Burns

    John Burns Well-Known Member

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    Shawn Carlock,

    I was there and I do know Len hit that bull perfectly on the top of the shoulder.

    What I don’t understand is how anyone can watch that video and have any doubt?

    The front end of the bull begins to collapse before his butt hits the ground. Anyone with any experience knows the back end always folds up first. This is basic physiology of any four legged animal. The rear legs are held by muscle and the front end is inline bone. The back end always hits the ground first.

    There are at least 10 other examples of this through out the video.

    As for “blood streaming from a spot about 10-12” forward of the pelvis and a good distance back from the shoulder” I don’t know what you are referring to in that statement. I know there was no blood streaming from this side of the elk and I can’t see any in the video.

    Having seen my fair share of elk killed I have never witnessed in real life nor on video a gut shot that drop the elk on the spot. Hits to the spine behind the diaphragm leave the front legs able to support the front end of the animal for a while and the animal will travel a short distance pulling the disabled rear end. This is clearly not the case as this bull has lost control of everything from his shoulders back. He can only move his head up and down a few times before he expires on the spot he was shot.

    According to your web site you are also filming hunts. Do you have any video of an elk hit on the top of the shoulder that the rear end did not collapse first?

    I really am interested because I am sort of dumfounded that anyone could see the same video I see and think it was anything but a perfect hit. I guess what I mean is that “Beyond Belief” is far from perfect and there are certainly mistakes but this is one criticism that caught me by surprise.

    Royinidaho,

    Yes the bull was looking at us. We had to move out of the timber to the left and he saw something while we were setting up.

    I have used the Whoop on Idaho elk and it worked there also. I am completely incompetent at whistling so that is just not an option for me.