300WM/Berger 210/H1000 Reloading Issue

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by SES50, Jul 30, 2007.

  1. SES50

    SES50 Well-Known Member

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    I started putting a new load together for my 300WM a while back to reach out a little farther than my old load and I fired it for the first time this week. The results are a little confusing. Maybe some of you can help me out.

    When putting the load together I looked in three different books and interpolated between the 200 and the 220 loads to get the powder charge for the 210. This is what the books read:
    1) Lee Modern Reloading Second Edition

    200 Grain Jacketed Bullet
    H1000 - Min 74.0 - 2723 FPS
    Max 79.0c - 2883 FPS

    220 Grain Jacketed Bullet
    H1000 - Min 73.0 - 2597 FPS
    Max 78.0 - 2750 FPS

    So I get for 210 Grain Bullet 73.5 - 78.5 Grains of powder from this book.

    2) Barnes Reloading Manual Number 3

    200 Grain Bullet
    H1000 - Min 72.5 Grains - 2516 FPS
    Max 77.5 Grains - 2689 FPS

    3) Speer Reloading Manual Number 13

    200 Grain Bullet
    H1000 - Min 73.0 Grains - 2629 FPS
    Max 77.0c Grains - 2797 FPS

    So I loaded up 5 rounds of each load between 76.0 - 78.5 in half grain intervals to see what I got. My crono did not read every round fired but I got some readings for every shot fired. Also all the brass showed high pressure signs with the primer pushed out flat and one case actually having the head pop off after it was back in my reloading bullet carrier box.

    Here are the speeds I recorded:
    78.5 Grains
    2930
    2936
    2936
    2962
    2962

    78.0 Grains
    2962
    NR
    NR
    NR
    2898

    77.5 Grains
    NR
    2917
    2861
    2892
    2892

    77.0 Grains
    2861
    2879
    2873
    2867
    2886

    76.5 Grains
    2930
    2949
    2982
    2976
    2996

    76.0 Grains
    NR
    2949
    NR
    2917
    2969

    So the interesting thing is that the velocities start high then drop down as the powder goes down in volume and then the velocities increase again. I am shooting these out of a 26" barrel on a T/C Encore and the velocities seem really high with what I compare to the velocities the book says I should be getting. If I figure every inch of extra barrel adds about 50 FPS these bullets should not be going this fast.

    These loads are not crimped and are .010" off the lands. I am using GM215M primers and I trickled every powder load so I believe the powder weight is dead on. Also the 78.5 Grain load had the best group at a little over .5 MOA.

    So, can anyone explain to me why I am getting the cases falling apart and the primers really pushed out? And why do I have the strange velocity fluctuations? Anyone else using H1000 in a 300WM?

    Thanks
    SES
     
  2. 300winnie

    300winnie Well-Known Member

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    I have a load worked up for my Browning Stainless Stalker with a 26" tube that pushes the 200 grain Accubond at an average of 3,038 fps and 80.5 grains of H1000 that doesn't overly work my brass. My loads are seated .030 off the lands and accuracy is sub m.o.a. I took my loading information out of the Hodgdon #26 Manual. Just looking at the information I wouldn't think you were out of line, but the gun is obviously telling you otherwise. As far as the velocity issues...you've got me, I don't have a clue.
     

  3. Eaglet

    Eaglet Well-Known Member

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    SES50,
    What kind of chronograph are you using?
     
  4. SES50

    SES50 Well-Known Member

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    Competition Electronics ProChrono Digital Chronograph
     
  5. Eric Stecker

    Eric Stecker <b>SPONSOR</b>

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    SES,

    I can provide some assistance but for the best help I recommend that you contact Walt Berger directly at bergerltd@aol.com. Walt is the best person to provide you with assistance even if it is not related to the bullet.

    Regarding the various loads listed in the manuals, we are putting our manual together right now and have been doing considerable research on the subject of loading data. We have learned that no two manuals are alike because different lots within a particular type of powder will vary considerably. In fact, powders can change places on the burn rate chart due to this inconsistency.

    You may have a lot that is hotter than those tested when the manuals were created. If this is the case in your situation then you can see why loading manuals will tend to list loads that are conservative.

    It is possible that something else is causing your situation which is why I am suggesting you get Walt involved.

    Regards,
    Eric Stecker
    Berger Bullets
     
  6. SES50

    SES50 Well-Known Member

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    Eric,

    Thanks for the info. I will give him a call when I get a chance in the next couple day. Is there anytime during the day that would be best? Is there any possiblility that you could drop a print out of this on his desk so he can take a look at it before I call?

    I appreciate the advise.

    Thanks
    Sherman
     
  7. LRHWAL

    LRHWAL Well-Known Member

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    I was provided with data by Walt Berger within a day or so of dropping Berger's helpline an e-mail on the website

    The data as developed on quick load and for a 26" barrel with H1000 was:

    72.5 gr - 2689fps
    76.2 - 2836 fps (maximum load).

    I suggest you get in touch with them directly, and certainly I don't accept responsibility for this data.

    In short - that says your load may be too high. Certainly your cases are telling you that. We often don't know "why".

    I'm sometimes surprised by the numbers some guys get and claim are not "over pressure" when we have no real way to measure. I use a chronograph and if I get more velocity than I figure I should I accept that it's probably over pressure.

    I don't question that you get "fast barrels" and diameter differences that can affect this, but that's how I would see it.

    With South African powders 210 Bergers at 2850 in my 300WM (26") are where I'm comfortable and 2900 was pushing it. I often wonder if the 50 or 100 fps really makes any appreciable difference and why we "chase it" (not saying you are, just commenting).

    I we really NEED more speed we should buy bigger guns. I fall into this from time to time - not saying I'm immune, but I'm having a lucid moment, so commenting on it.

    I hope that data helps some. I've got it for other US powders too if need be, but as Eric said - go to Berger's site directly and they'll hook you up with data.

    Wim
    (SA)
     
  8. Eric Stecker

    Eric Stecker <b>SPONSOR</b>

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    SES,

    Walt has worked much of his life in a noisy paper mill and shot without hearing protection for most of his years. Calling him is not the best way to get his help as he has trouble hearing.

    Send him an email at bergerltd@aol.com with all of your particulars and data. His experience is vast and he is happy to help. Unless he is attending a match he will respond to you quickly.

    Wim is making some good points that may already address your situation.

    Regards,
    Eric
     
  9. davewilson

    davewilson Well-Known Member

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    not trying to sound like a smart-A but you have high pressure signs and velocities that are high. what's the mystery?
     
  10. SES50

    SES50 Well-Known Member

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    76.0 grains is in the middle of the published load range and I still have really high pressure signs. Primers pushed out flat over the whole area and case heads splitting off. I will lower the powder load of coarse but I would like to understand why I differ so much from the published data. This does not seem correct and the velocity fluctuation from high to low to high is something I have never seen before. Do you see a mystery now or maybe you can help explain what is causing this other than the obvious comment that the pressure in the case is getting to high?
     
  11. LRHWAL

    LRHWAL Well-Known Member

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    You can't assume that the data in trhe manual applies to

    1. Your cases
    2. Your primers
    3. Your bullets (which differ from the manual quite markedly)
    4. Your chamber dimension
    5. Your lead length and bullet jump
    6. Your barrel

    Like why does a certain (fixed) drill size and certain (fixed) screw size have different torque requirements to screw into different pieces of wood.

    So you get a starting point - closer to minimum than maximum. Start a few loads and look at what you see. If you are running faster at the minimum than the book (or for whatever given load), then your combination will top out lower too. You are then running a "tighter" (best description I can come up with now) combination of components affecting pressure than the book is. It could be any one or a combination of those (and other factors).

    Your velocitites are way higher it seems than even the manuals you refer to - even if the bullets aren't quite the same. I'd suspect you will reach max at a lower charge. Your data seems to show that.

    Look at the data I shared - 76gr is close to MAX - not in the middle of the range. If you get much over 2850 I'd suspect you are over what you should be. Not that I'm superbly knowledgeable on this stuff, or know nearly as much as many others here. I was told by the guys here at Somchem that for a given propellant the pressure/velocity relationship is linear (or something along those lines). Basically, in short, what Dave said - for a given powder if you are getting way more than everyone else is, your pressure is also more (from what I understand).

    Very wide ES's (high to low) are indicative of high pressure, I'm told - if it's near a top load.

    At what point did you go over 100% load density? You don't say, but from the other data you gave I'd guess some of your loads are compressed too?

    A 210gr at 2800 is quite decent load. I'd try to load for that. Think of all the powder you'll save ;-)
     
  12. GREYGHOSTt

    GREYGHOSTt <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    You may be setting the shoulder back too far for the T/C!!
    This allows the case to be shoved forward away from the rear of the chamber by the firing pin. When this happens the head space becomes excessive. the round fires case sticks to the side of the chamber momentairly this alows the primmer to scoot back out of the case a little and start to baloon just as the pressure subsides the case is shoved back and splatters the primmer.With the case forward and stuck to the chamber this will also cause the head seperation..
    Smoke this info over a little while!!
     
  13. Nomad

    Nomad Banned

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    Loading 76.5 of RE 25 in win cases 215M and a 200smk
    or game king gets 3040 out of one 300 and 2830 out of the
    other both rifles are shooting sub moa.... Just a thought..
     
  14. SES50

    SES50 Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting. I will measure that as well and start with a lower powder charge.

    78.5 was a compressed load.