pressman
Well-Known Member
I read an article in here about Len i think of shooting a 223 out to 1 mile accurately what was the speed of that bullet at that distance
300 gr SMKs consistancy dropping out of Supersonic velocity...
- Thread starter Fiftydriver
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This is the first time I have seen this thread or I would have responded a couple months ago.
Me and goodgrouper's longrange rifle (the MOAG) is a ballistic twin to what Gordy Gritters is shooting. In 2005 me and GG did extensive testing with the MOAG shooting the 300gr SMK at 3050fps, we were able to make confirmed hit's on rockchuck's past 2000yds. in fact my longest confirmed hit was at 2144yards with this feat I won the VHA longest shot of the year award.
At the time I considered this quite an accomplishment , but when the 2006 "LSOY" award came out and I read the distance and the equipment list I knew it was total B.S.
In my opinion I dont think what Gritters is claiming is possible, I was never a believer in what Slack & Artus were claiming either.
Back several years ago the VHA magazine was the best publication of it's kind, now it has little or no credibility. author's like Steve Timm are gone and they leave us with the painful writings of Don Lewis and the arrogance of L.P.Brezny and Gordy Gritters that walks on unquestioned hallowed ground.
could rant further but time to go to work.
UB
Me and goodgrouper's longrange rifle (the MOAG) is a ballistic twin to what Gordy Gritters is shooting. In 2005 me and GG did extensive testing with the MOAG shooting the 300gr SMK at 3050fps, we were able to make confirmed hit's on rockchuck's past 2000yds. in fact my longest confirmed hit was at 2144yards with this feat I won the VHA longest shot of the year award.
At the time I considered this quite an accomplishment , but when the 2006 "LSOY" award came out and I read the distance and the equipment list I knew it was total B.S.
In my opinion I dont think what Gritters is claiming is possible, I was never a believer in what Slack & Artus were claiming either.
Back several years ago the VHA magazine was the best publication of it's kind, now it has little or no credibility. author's like Steve Timm are gone and they leave us with the painful writings of Don Lewis and the arrogance of L.P.Brezny and Gordy Gritters that walks on unquestioned hallowed ground.
could rant further but time to go to work.
UB
7mmrowland
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Well UncleB there are a good chance that people on this forum that have shot the long shot of the year or have witnessed these shots. I happen to be one who witnessed the 2006 shot and to have you call it BS is a bunch of crape I not only witnessed Jesse Freese shoot that badger at 2236. I managed to figure out how to video tape it by placeing the camera up to my NSX 12x42 scope with it on high power and video tape the whole dam thing. So for about 35 bucks we can copy the shot on dvd and send you one.
Tyler Kemp
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Can you post the video?
Well UncleB there are a good chance that people on this forum that have shot the long shot of the year or have witnessed these shots. I happen to be one who witnessed the 2006 shot and to have you call it BS is a bunch of crape I not only witnessed Jesse Freese shoot that badger at 2236. I managed to figure out how to video tape it by placeing the camera up to my NSX 12x42 scope with it on high power and video tape the whole dam thing. So for about 35 bucks we can copy the shot on dvd and send you one.
I may be wrong, but I think that UncleB is questioning the 3000 yard claims..
Yep, I'd agree. If UB had a kill at 2144, I don't think he's claiming BS on a badger kill at 2236. They (in VHA magazine) were claiming good accuracy out to 3000 yds and it's those ranges that appear beyond belief.
As for me, I don't know how you'd see a varmint at 3000 yds, let alone hit one, shy of military ordinance. I don't plan to burn out any of my barrels trying to do so.
7mmrowland
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Not sure how to down load the video, but will try or maybe someone knows if they do let me know I will do my best. UncleB stated that the 2006 LSOY was BS, the shot my buddy made. Not 3000,but 2236yds. The shots at that badger were probly in a 3 foot group, but some of the shots were air born then the badger would move to differant prairie dog hole, so caused a lot of misses. If I can't figure it out would be happy to send it to someone that could as an alternative to get it posted that would be cool!
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I stand corrected if you're correct. And yes, a lot of members would enjoy watching your video if you can make it work. I sure would. That's quite an accomplishment.
And maybe UB will clarify his comments.
7mmrowland
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Ya, the video turned out good with me video taping looking though my nightforce and aiming at it it looked as though I was shooting. I think it was about 30 shots obviously this is not one shot one kill shooting. Just happen we had just figured out the right amount of camera to scope zoom to make it work when I spotted the Badger. I would have been shooting exept I was dialed in at around 1500yds and he was already set up for around 2000yds. So I let him go for it and had as much fun recording the action.gun)
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Fiftydriver
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We have gotten off track here. The topic is about Gritters saying that not only is accurate, consistant performance possible at 3000 yards, its possible and attainable at 3600-3700 yards as well.
I have tested only one round that I can honestly say was consistantly accurate at 3000 yards. May sound like I am tooting my own horn but it was the 338 Allen Magnum. BUT, only with the prototype 265 gr AT RBBT from Wildcat bullets loaded to 3550 fps. With their BC in the .960 range, I was able to sustain super sonic velocity past 3000 yards.
In actual paper shooting at 3008 yards, the rifle would hold 1 moa groups for three shot groups, yes, roughly 30".
The game is hard at 1000 yards, take it to 1500 yards and its 10 times as difficult, take it to 2000 yards and multiply the difficulty another 10 times. Anything much past that with conventional rifles is ****in in the wind.
Can you get a hit, certainly. Throw 30 rounds down range and eventually you will get a hit. But what I am referring to is precision accuracy at extreme range, 1 moa or better at +3000 yards.
I have tested pretty much every long range class of rifle that we have all talked about and NONE will sustain consistant accuracy out past 2500 yards and only the very most extreme will get you 2700-2800 yards. Have to get a .8 BC bullet in the 3400 fps range to do that.
Again, no offense about the 2006 long shot of the year, but that is irrelavent to this conversation, which was directed toward the comments made by Gitters in a couple articles in VH magazine.
I made a stink about it to the editor of VH and I see there was no article by Gritters in the last magazine. Not saying its because of me or my comments but it was good to see.
Had I entered my qualifying shot in the year it was taken, your 2006 shot would not have one the LSOY award but that was my fault. I got the 2007 award with a 2370 yard kill. In that case, there were 5 shots fired from start to finish and that was with a rifle that had never been fired past 400 yards, EVER. But staying super sonic to that range helps a great deal for accurate shot placement.
When I first read the specs of the rifle and load used in the 2006 LSOY I was also sceptical, still em. But now that I hear that 30 shots were fired to make the kill explains things alot. Obviously consistancy was lacking at that range with that combo, something that we all knew would be the case.
1.5 moa at 2200 yards is not all that bad but still, its not what I call true precision accuracy but that is I am sure due to the fact that the bullets were dropping out of super sonic velocity.
I have tested only one round that I can honestly say was consistantly accurate at 3000 yards. May sound like I am tooting my own horn but it was the 338 Allen Magnum. BUT, only with the prototype 265 gr AT RBBT from Wildcat bullets loaded to 3550 fps. With their BC in the .960 range, I was able to sustain super sonic velocity past 3000 yards.
In actual paper shooting at 3008 yards, the rifle would hold 1 moa groups for three shot groups, yes, roughly 30".
The game is hard at 1000 yards, take it to 1500 yards and its 10 times as difficult, take it to 2000 yards and multiply the difficulty another 10 times. Anything much past that with conventional rifles is ****in in the wind.
Can you get a hit, certainly. Throw 30 rounds down range and eventually you will get a hit. But what I am referring to is precision accuracy at extreme range, 1 moa or better at +3000 yards.
I have tested pretty much every long range class of rifle that we have all talked about and NONE will sustain consistant accuracy out past 2500 yards and only the very most extreme will get you 2700-2800 yards. Have to get a .8 BC bullet in the 3400 fps range to do that.
Again, no offense about the 2006 long shot of the year, but that is irrelavent to this conversation, which was directed toward the comments made by Gitters in a couple articles in VH magazine.
I made a stink about it to the editor of VH and I see there was no article by Gritters in the last magazine. Not saying its because of me or my comments but it was good to see.
Had I entered my qualifying shot in the year it was taken, your 2006 shot would not have one the LSOY award but that was my fault. I got the 2007 award with a 2370 yard kill. In that case, there were 5 shots fired from start to finish and that was with a rifle that had never been fired past 400 yards, EVER. But staying super sonic to that range helps a great deal for accurate shot placement.
When I first read the specs of the rifle and load used in the 2006 LSOY I was also sceptical, still em. But now that I hear that 30 shots were fired to make the kill explains things alot. Obviously consistancy was lacking at that range with that combo, something that we all knew would be the case.
1.5 moa at 2200 yards is not all that bad but still, its not what I call true precision accuracy but that is I am sure due to the fact that the bullets were dropping out of super sonic velocity.
7mmrowland
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Was'nt trying to get off or change the topic just sticking up for a dude that did what he did wether it was 5 shots or 500. I do how ever totaly agree with you Mr. Allen on the long range shooting FACTs concerning bullets leaving supersonic velocities and having the right equipment makes thing alot easier. That gun that was used had only 100yd and 300yd tuning. We basically jumped in a truck with a bunch of ammo and headed west to shoot this sorta range as greenhorns with the equipment we thought was good enough. You are oveisly more in tune to kinda shooting maybe more than I or he ever will be living in MN not to many areas to shoot that far basicaly requires a years planning and a few day trip once a year to practice this stuff. People who live out west have pretty good. If a perticular member would'nt have thrown in fact that he said the 2006 shot was BS I would'nt have to type all this being I'm at like 6 words a minute. LOL
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Fiftydriver
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I have talked with UncleB about this topic alot and on basis I agree with him. The combo used for the 2006 LSOY makes it very hard to believe, for a serious experienced long range shooter, that it was shooting predictably accurate at that range. I know he still stands by that opinion and with all due respect I do as well.
The other comment that weither it takes 5 or 500 shots to accomplish the LSOY is also something that I do not agree with.
This is supposed to be precision shooting. It would be nice if we could limit the LSOY to one shot kills if precision was what we were looking to chronical.
My LSOY award would not even be viable from my own standards. I understand at this range that one shot kills on varmint size targets just is not practical. At +2000 yards, 1/2 moa is not something that we can realistically EXPECT to see. Even 1/2 moa at 2000 yards is 10" groups, thats a big circle for varmint hunting. Many varmints would fit in that circle with alot of air around them for misses.
3/4 moa is about the very best I have seen at 2K with ideal conditions, match grade brass and an extremely skilled shooter. Thats 15" groups, now your talking about the likelihood of more misses then hits.
With 1.5 moa at 2200 yards, 30" groups, the odds of hitting your target are very low, making a killing shot at that range is even rarer.
To many, this does not impress when looking at the accuracy of the rifle and shooter.
UncleB has never said it was not possible and I have never heard him say it did not happen. What he said was that there should be some standards to maintain the reputation of the award.
To many of us, it makes a huge difference if it took 5 shots or 50 shots to make one kill at long range.
I once read a caption of a picture in VH magazine that had a guy with a 223 AI shooting 40 gr Ballistic Tips out of an AR-15 and he had a "small" sized prairie dog that was killed at over 1100 yards........
I think you know what my comment to this would be. How many mags did it take to make this kill???????
Again, not saying your buddy did not make the shot, not at all, just that its highly unlikely that the combo could produce consistant results at that range. Your added information only confirms this.
Maybe we need to include the number of shots it took to make the kill.
Anyway, always like to see long range Video so if you can load it up we would all like to see it.
To get back to the point of the post. At what point did your buddies combo drop out of super sonic velocity?
The other comment that weither it takes 5 or 500 shots to accomplish the LSOY is also something that I do not agree with.
This is supposed to be precision shooting. It would be nice if we could limit the LSOY to one shot kills if precision was what we were looking to chronical.
My LSOY award would not even be viable from my own standards. I understand at this range that one shot kills on varmint size targets just is not practical. At +2000 yards, 1/2 moa is not something that we can realistically EXPECT to see. Even 1/2 moa at 2000 yards is 10" groups, thats a big circle for varmint hunting. Many varmints would fit in that circle with alot of air around them for misses.
3/4 moa is about the very best I have seen at 2K with ideal conditions, match grade brass and an extremely skilled shooter. Thats 15" groups, now your talking about the likelihood of more misses then hits.
With 1.5 moa at 2200 yards, 30" groups, the odds of hitting your target are very low, making a killing shot at that range is even rarer.
To many, this does not impress when looking at the accuracy of the rifle and shooter.
UncleB has never said it was not possible and I have never heard him say it did not happen. What he said was that there should be some standards to maintain the reputation of the award.
To many of us, it makes a huge difference if it took 5 shots or 50 shots to make one kill at long range.
I once read a caption of a picture in VH magazine that had a guy with a 223 AI shooting 40 gr Ballistic Tips out of an AR-15 and he had a "small" sized prairie dog that was killed at over 1100 yards........
I think you know what my comment to this would be. How many mags did it take to make this kill???????
Again, not saying your buddy did not make the shot, not at all, just that its highly unlikely that the combo could produce consistant results at that range. Your added information only confirms this.
Maybe we need to include the number of shots it took to make the kill.
Anyway, always like to see long range Video so if you can load it up we would all like to see it.
To get back to the point of the post. At what point did your buddies combo drop out of super sonic velocity?
Since you guys are spinning them very fast, as they go transonic could the RPS be too fast?
It would seem that the SMK may be over stabilized at the low velocity and the nose is not following the trajectory causing high drag. I wonder if a 1:12 or 1:14 at 3500 fps would be stable at the muzzle and yielding better downrange performance.
edge.
It would seem that the SMK may be over stabilized at the low velocity and the nose is not following the trajectory causing high drag. I wonder if a 1:12 or 1:14 at 3500 fps would be stable at the muzzle and yielding better downrange performance.
edge.
