22-250 for heavier bullets?

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by timberflint, Sep 6, 2004.

  1. timberflint

    timberflint Member

    Messages:
    12
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2004
    Kind of leaning toward rebarreling a 22-250 for heavier bullets. Maybe something in the way of 70 to 80 grain VLDs for longer range shooting.

    Before investing in this project can anyone advise any downside?

    For 70 to 80 grain VLDs would 1 in 8 or 1 in 9 be best. Also would 3 groove, 4 groove, 5 groove, or 6 groove be best.

    Thanks for your input.

    Great board.

    Tim
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    timberflint,

    It's very difficult to say if your project has any downsides until we know what you intend to use this project for.

    As a cartridge used to fire heavy bullets, the 22-250 is excellent. I'm using it right now in a test barrel with a 7 twist for 90 grain JLK's. It will also handle the 77 and 80 grain Sierras and Bergers.

    Mine is a 6 groove but most will vote for the 3 groove now-a-days since they believe that throat erosion is less. Whatever you choose, it should at least be stainless steel. The 1:8 twist will be fine for the 80 grain bullets. The 90's require a faster twist.

    Post what you're considering about doing with your project.

    Regards.
     

  3. timberflint

    timberflint Member

    Messages:
    12
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2004
    Crispin,

    Thank you for your info.

    Basically we are doing some informal longer range shooting. Mostly at 600 yards right now but hope to get out to 1/2 mile (880 yards). I am a wimp about recoil so trying to come up with something in a .22 cal that will reasonably hold up. Also have always enjoyed the 22-250 as grew up with one ground hog hunting in Ohio.

    My Rem 700 VSSF (1 in 14 twist) surprisingly has done fairly well at 600 yards with 50 grain V-max. Best was 9 rounds (3 - 3 shot groups)in 3 1/2 inches. Obviously light wind.

    We have done a little better with a .223 (1 in 9 twist) with 69 and 75 grain bullets. This is where my interest came for a faster twist for the 22-250.

    Would you know if the faster speed of the 22-250 will change the twist needed in the 22-250 vs the .223 for the same weight bullet? Does that make sense? What I am wondering is if a 1 in 9 twist is recommended for a Berger 75 VLD would speed not change that recommendation?

    Thank you very much for your time and input.

    Tim
     
  4. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

    Messages:
    6,848
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2004
    Timberflint,

    THe 22-250 is a fine chambering for the heavy VLD bullets as it will produce good velocities and still be easy on your throat for long barrel life.

    An even better round in my opinion would be the 22-250 AI as it will give a little more velocity with the big bullets but more importantly, your brass will last several times longer with appropriate loading compared to the shallow shouldered 22-250.

    This is a very impressive little combination for someone wanting to reach out to the half mile mark, and touch some varmints or puch paper. IT will certainly reach out farther but only in calm conditions with consistancy.

    Its kind of funny, I have a 30", straight cylinder 1.250" diameter Lilja blank with a 1-8" twist just sitting in the shop waiting for me to do something with it or use it for a customers project.

    I am sure it is a 3 groove barrel as these are my preferred barrels for most extreme accuracy barrels.

    The 3 groove throat holds up better then the 6 and 8 groove will. With the tight throats I get on my reamers, this also helps limit throat erosion.

    Bullet wise, I would either use the Berger 80 gr VLD or one of Richard Graves ULD designs for the .224" caliber.

    If your interested in the barrel or having it fitted to an action for you let me know and I will get you pricing information.

    The reason I ordered the barrel was that I was going to build myself a rifle similiar to what you have in mind except I was going to use the much larger 22-6mm AI chamber to really snort those big VLD's out fast.

    This would be for extreme range varminting(800-1000 yards) so I would not be as concerned with throat life as you would be if you were competing with the rifle.

    Still the 22-6mmAI will deliever about 400 fps over what the 22-250 will.

    If your interested let me know and I will get you more information.

    The last several extreme range .224" rifles I shipped out the door have been quite impressive at the 1/2 mile mark. Those were in 223 AI(if youcan believe that), 22-250 AI and the 22-6mmAI.

    All used medium heavy contoured barrels in the #6 to #8 range in 1-8" twists and all were Lilja barrels.

    GOod Shooting!!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  5. timberflint

    timberflint Member

    Messages:
    12
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2004
    Kirby Allen,

    Than you very much for the ideas and information.

    Had not considered the 22-250 AI or even thought about a .223AI. Both are interesting ideas.

    As I am still in the planning stage will definitely keep your Lija barrel in mind. Still not sure weather to use either a Remington or Savage action. Have always shot Remingtons but hearing really good things about Savages.

    Sounds like the 22-250 will work for heavier bullets with the faster twist.

    Thanks again for your help.

    Keep smiling and great shooting.

    Tim
     
  6. brian b

    brian b Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    302
    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2004
    I have seen a 22-250 Ackley Imp. 1-8 twist
    in action for over a year now,it seem's to be
    about the perfect powder cap. for vld bullet's in the 69 to 80 gr. range. A 22-284
    is tooooo much as I witnessed a barrel burn
    out in less than 1000 round's,a straight 22-
    250 is a waste. go to a 22-250 IMP.or a 22-
    6mm as fiftydriver suggested
    B.
     
  7. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

    Messages:
    6,848
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2004
    Timberflint,

    Personally, as an extreme accuracy minded gunsmith, I would go with a Rem 700 ADL action converted permanently to single shot if I were to use a factory action for such a project.

    They can be printed easily and produce true match grade accuracy for this type of project. I say ADL simply because of the solid bottom stock design which is much more rigid compared to the BDL version with its open floor plate.

    IF the look of teh BLD is preferred, I recommend converting the action to single shot and filling the mag well cut out in the stock with bedding compound to stiffen it up.

    Costs more then using an ADL action but gets the same results.

    The Savage is a great action as well, but I prefer to get rid of the barrel locking nut and fit a Savage barrel just like a REM action. THis allows the use of full diameter 1.250" barrels instead of the roughly 1" barrels needed to pass through the barrel lock nut.

    Also, Savage actions are tricky to bed properly. It is possible for sure but the rear tang and the barrel locking nut(if used) require special attention when bedding or you will get serious variations in your groups.

    Liek I said, the Savage actions will shoot but they take more time and generally a little more money in labor to get them to equal the Rem 700.

    The 223 AI is a hell of a round providing performance all out of porportion to its size,

    BUT!,

    For what you are wanting to do, I would go with at least a 22-250 AI with the extra horsepower needed to drive the big 75-80 gr VLD bullets.

    Like I said, I prefer the 22-6mm AI with its much higher velocity potential, or looked at another way, you can beat the 22-250 AI by a fair margin with dramatically less pressure or with the same pressure levels you can flat out smoke it or the 220 Swift.

    Let me know on the barrel if your interested and I will get you a price.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  8. brianwinzor

    brianwinzor Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    201
    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2003
    Timberflint,

    Over the last 35 years, I have used a variety of .224 centrefires including 222Rem, 22/250, 22/250 AI, 220 Swift, 220 Swift AI, 22/284, and 224 Clark (22/257 Roberts imp.). I believe the comments and suggestions by Fifty Driver, Crispin Goodall, and Brianb are excellent.

    Although my best long range field shooting was done with a custom 22/250 (1 in 14 twist) some 35 years ago, I agree with Fifty Driver that the 22/250 AI, is probably the best option for the type of shooting you have in mind.

    A 1 in 9 twist would be required to stabilise
    a 75 grain VLD or the 75 grain Amax. A 1 in 8 twist would be required to stabilise the 80 grain VLD's of Berger and JLK. A 1 in 7 twist would be needed if you wanted to use the 90 grain JLK.

    You may be tempted into using a larger capacity case to obtain the extra performance, but the trade off is that you require a quality SS barrel, and then contend with more frequent barrel cleaning to prevent fouling problems. The cases of 55+ grains capacity are hot after 3 shots in 3 minutes, so you have to space your shots if you want to avoid damage to the sensitive throat area.

    However, if you can manage the problems, the performance from larger cases such as the 22/6m AI, which Fifty Driver mentioned is exhillerating, and I believe that he was being conservative when he mentioned the 400 fps differential between the larger cases and the 22/250.

    To illustrate this, my .224 Clark achieved 3,930 fps with the 69 grain Sierra HPBT, and after 1600 shots I had the barrel set back and rechambered to the 22/250 AI, and in the same barrel with the same bullet, I am now getting 3,430 fps, which is a difference of 500 fps. Compared to the standard 22/250 it would be about 650 - 700 fps.

    The case capacity of the 22/250 is about 43.0 grains, 22/250 AI 28 deg.- 49.2 grains, 220 Swift- 50.4 grains, 220 Swift AI 40 degree- 55.4 grains, 22/257 Roberts (22/6mm similar) - 57.1 grains, 22/284 - 63.8 grains, 224 Clark 63.8 grains. I understand that the newly introduced .223 WSSM has a capacity of about 54.5 grains, but the case requires that you use a different or modified boltface.

    Good luck, and hope the above helps. Regards, Brian.
     
  9. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

    Messages:
    6,848
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2004
    Brian Winzor,

    I agree with your comments as well. THe 22-6mm AI is the ballistic Tip of the 224 Clark. Only real difference is that the Clark was designed to shoot the extremely heavy bullets whereas the 22-6mm AI was designed to shoot the conventional weight bullets.

    This certainly does not mean it is not well designed for such bullets though.

    I generally try to be a little conservative when listing expected velocity ranges for different rounds.

    As a gun builder, if I tell a customer that he will get 500 fps more velocity with the 22-6mm AI over his 22-250 AI, and he only gets 400 fps, there are certain folks around today that get kind of pissy about such things.

    Most shooters are educated enough to know that variations in barrels will prevent all velocities from being totally consistant from one rifle to another.

    There are some out there that will hold you to the letter of your word and demand you fix their "PROBLEM" when they get +400 fps instead of +500 fps.

    I error on the conservative side of things. It is this same small group of individuals that are even more satisfied when they actually beat what you tell them.

    SO if I predict a little low and they get more velocity then I tell them, they think they got a deal so to speak.

    I have yet to have a conversation with anyone on this board that would fall into this group of people but in business I guess I have just conditioned myself to be conservative.

    Good Shooting!!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  10. timberflint

    timberflint Member

    Messages:
    12
    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2004
    Wow, looks like I asked my question in the right place. What a wealth of knowledge here.

    Thank you all.

    Keep smiling.

    Tim
     
  11. foxhunter

    foxhunter Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    548
    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2003
    what kind of velocity can one expect from a 220 swift in a 1-9 twist three groove barrel. i have been told the a max will come apart in a 1-8 or faster barrel. has any one tried the nosler vld 69-80 gr bullets

    tia
     
  12. Andy Mass

    Andy Mass Member

    Messages:
    23
    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2003
    Timberflint

    I have a Tikka 595 rebarelled with a Border 1 in 8 twist heavy profile chambered for 22-250 AI, set into a Mcmillan Sako varmint stock.

    I use exclusively 75 grain A-max moly under 39.5grains of RL22, get approx 3290fps and .45"groups at 100. Not excessive long range, but have taken bunnies out to 450yards with regularity. Very nice to shoot, no recoil, blast controlled by BR silencer. Shot well over 1200 rounds now with no discernable loss of accuracy. Fireforming Ackley case is easy and load data is available via usual scources. Get one NOW!!!! [​IMG]
     
  13. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,705
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2004
    timberflint
    I am the ex-owner of the .22-.284 that brian b was mentioning earlier and the owner of the current .22-250 AI. I can tell you that the 250 is waaaayyy better than the 284! I get within 150 fps using 11 grains less powder and a 4 inch SHORTER barrel! The 22-250 AI is awesome. I have repeatedly taken fat rockchucks with it from 500 yards out to 1100 yards! I can spot all my shots without a muzzle brake and it is not temperamental. I shoot the 75 gr a-max at 3400 fps with standard deviations usually in the single digits. My load with the current lot of powder and primers is 42.5 of H4831sc in a Federal case with Fed210gm primers. One thing I really ought to mention also is that I first was shooting nosler j4's and Berger 80 vld's, but I shot several rockchucks as close as 300 yards and all they did was poke holes. I even had one chuck re-immerge from his hole 30 minutes after I had squarely hit him in the guts and he started to eat his dinner! Since switching to the a-max, I haven't lost one. It always explodes them with high order detonation! Hope this helps.

    [ 09-15-2004: Message edited by: goodgrouper ]
     
  14. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

    Messages:
    6,848
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2004
    Foxhunter,

    THe A-Max will top out at around 3200-3250 fps in a 1-8" twist, at least that is what I am seeing with the 22, 6mm and 6.5 versions in mu custom rifles.

    The Sierra Mk's will generally get you another +300 fps accurately but on game performance will suffer. If your pucnching paper they are great and if you use larger diameter Mk's they also work great. The small, 22 and 6mm versions do not perform real well on light varmints, under 15 lbs at extreme range.

    In a 1-9 twist, this will be a little different. I have a customer shootign the 105 gr A-Max bullets out of his 6mm-06 at just shy of 3600 fps and he is getting groups in the .3" range.

    The slower twist certainly is more gental to the A-Max but you also need the velocity to make them work well.

    The 220 AI will have plenty of power to do this. I would say you will get 100 fps more then the 22-250 AI.

    Good Shooting!!!

    Kirby Allen(50)